Free-form modeling for ARCHICAD

[Martin Jules]

How could I realize the enclosed waffle system using PARAM-O? Please let me know!

[jl_lt]

hi, ill answer your question eventhough you havent responded to any of the ones i have posted for you: No, mr mjoules, i dont know how "to digitally fabricate free form physical models from ArchiCAD using contouring techniques", in part because if you have been reading, you know we dont do free form stuff and we are not really than much into physical models; so far, whatever we do can be done in archicad alone. if we ever needed to do some free form we would most certainly use any of the currently available tools, like rhino instead of archicad (but would still use Archicad to integrate everything). still, if you can illustrate us on these contouring techniques, it would be great; if i remember corretly, this countouring you mention is quite easy to do in Rhino.

lets not run in circles. Can we agree that, as of today ,archicad is not a native free form modelling software but can of kind of become one if upgraded with the rhino grasshopper conection which was created for this purpose. So my question for you is, why not use that?

[Martin Jules]

Jl-lt,

I agree with your point that there is a weakness in ArchiCAD for some user groups on the market, a problem that can be resolved if Graphisoft wants to do so. I've learned both the Revit and Rhino, and I used to work with them. I like programming, but I don't have a mindset to learn how to do that because I have to deal with too many things during the architectural design process from predesign (iterative process including physical models) to construction documentation (including MEP, etc). Architecture is too complicated that I'd suggest Graphisoft to think this way first.

Even though I learned other software programs, but I don't like them, and I don't like working on them either. This is my big problem. I am too tied up with ArchiCAD. Maybe I need to see a psychologist who can help me overcome this barrier. Otherwise, I will miss some architectural projects in the areas in which I evolve.

jl_lt wrote:
hi mr mjoules, ill answer your question eventhough you havent responded to any of the ones i have posted for you: No, mr mjoules, i dont know how to digitally fabricate free form physical models from ArchiCAD using contouring techniques, in part because if you have been reading, you know we dont do free form stuff; so far, whatever we do can be done in archicad alone. if we ever needed to do some free form we would most certainly use any of the currently available tools, like rhino. still, if you can illustrate us on it, it would be great.

lets not run in circles. Can we agree that, as of today ,archicad is not a native free form modelling software but can of kind of become one if upgraded with the rhino grasshopper conection which was created for this purpose. So my question for you is, why not use that?

[Podolsky]

I have quite strong opinion about all these free-form modelling and super-features of BIM programs that we are not getting. I don't think that ArchiCAD (or Rhino or Revit) gives a lot of limitations in 3D free form modelling. That might be the case 20 years ago, but not today. The only limitation we have today - is to understand, how to build one or another form.
On conceptual level - if ArchiCAD is not giving to make some very complicated form - you can use Rhino and export after the shape into ArchiCAD. For example Zaha Hadid Architects are using Maya often for modelling, when they are working with complicated double curvature surfaces.
If it's about how to make these glulam beams manufacturing drawings - it's possible to model them with morph tool. And after produce a lot of sections and dimension and annotate each beam. In that case I don't really see limitations in software, it's more about limitation of building material and construction technology, that is going to be used to construct this waffle.

[TMA_80]

while it has some freeform abilities , you won't have the freedom with the morph tool, the experience is not even smooth as in Sketchup, neither the curves are going to be smooth.

[Podolsky]

But produce such glulam beams in reality also not so simple! To make paper model of it also require a lot of work.
So, I don't think that there are any limitations by making such a shape. There are plenty of software, connections between them - just model it! If Morph tool is not good enough - then model in Sketchup and export it after. Or use Rhino. Or Rhino+Glasshoper. Or Maya.

[Martin Jules]

Podolsky,

Remember that ArhiCAD has been designed by architects for architects. Thus, we need full-capability architectural tools into ArchiCAD for whatever the architectural design or project on the market without the need to use any other software or editor. Otherwise, ArhiCAD loses its original essence.

Podolsky wrote:
But produce such glulam beams in reality also not so simple! To make paper model of it also require a lot of work.
So, I don't think that there are any limitations by making such a shape. There are plenty of software, connections between them - just model it! If Morph tool is not good enough - then model in Sketchup and export it after. Or use Rhino. Or Rhino+Glasshoper. Or Maya.

[Podolsky]

Okey. I did read this mantra on this forum. But to understand it correct it's necessary to understand who is architect and what is his role.
I seriously do not understand what is the problem with this wafer roof. Would you like to see tool, that do such a roof automatically? But this is unusual type of roof, that used in architecture not so often. I might say very rare.
There are many things are missed in ArchiCAD. For example we don't have special tools to design buildings on the Moon and Mars. I prefer to see ceilings and rebars tools in ArchiCAD instead.

Still exist option to create algorithm in Grasshopper, that will make such a roof. I guess it's not going to be simple, but nothing impossible in this field. Most important to know - what is exactly needed.

[Martin Jules]

Podolsky,

It seems that you miss the point. I don't talk about waffle roof here.

A software created by architects for architects means whatever the architectural tool an architect needs during the architectural design process should be integrated in that. An architect should create its own drawings, furniture, patterns, etc. He/she doesn't have to ask the software to do it for him/her. That's why, I never use objects from the ArchiCAD library. An architect is a creator, and a software dedicated to architecture might help him/her iterate his/her ideas.

Podolsky wrote:
Okey. I did read this mantra on this forum. But to understand it correct it's necessary to understand who is architect and what is his role.
I seriously do not understand what is the problem with this wafer roof. Would you like to see tool, that do such a roof automatically? But this is unusual type of roof, that used in architecture not so often. I might say very rare.
There are many things are missed in ArchiCAD. For example we don't have special tools to design buildings on the Moon and Mars. I prefer to see ceilings and rebars tools in ArchiCAD instead.

Still exist option to create algorithm in Grasshopper, that will make such a roof. I guess it's not going to be simple, but nothing impossible in this field. Most important to know - what is exactly needed.

[Podolsky]

I don't understand what this conversation about. Now on all treats it's going to be translated "made by architects for architects".
If you have your architectural ideas - draw it by hand in sketchbook. After think how you are going to build it.

[furtonb]

An architect is a creator, and a software dedicated to architecture might help him/her iterate his/her ideas.

I think ARCHICAD helps in this immensely - I can use more sophisticated software and even hotlink those models into the project file to use either as references or work with them, create publishing workflows, export to a wide range of other formats again (3D and 2D either), I can handle 2D drafting, referencing, basic DTP in one package.

If something needs to be improved, it is the IO side of the program, to be able to retain metadata of objects (e.g. Rhino key/value pairs). There are extremely robust workflows to handle blobs and freeform stuff, done mostly with Rhino+GH - so seamlessly integrating the .3dm format without losing metadata is something I can agree on. But developing robust surface modelling from scratch within AC is not even in my top30 wishlist, I'm afraid, there are better tools for this.

Double curved surfaces are not that commonly used nowadays, even concrete shells are seldom double curved. Finding structurally sound solutions is a matter way beyond modelling it (e.g. compression-only brick or clay structures are far from "freeform" anyway). Of course it would be nice to have AC as one-stop solution for FEA as well, but I would rather have it as a robust solution for organizing all kinds of materials related to a design. It is also easy to model forms that can be reasonably fabricated, which is not the case of double curvature.

we need full-capability architectural tools into ArchiCAD for whatever the architectural design or project on the market without the need to use any other software or editor.

I beg to differ, e.g. I find creating visualizations as an integral part of the planning process, but never in my right mind would I try to handle a large-scale project with trees, 3D people, ultra-high poly assets, and custom painted UV maps within AC, which is not a generic 3D modelling software. I also run various simulations occasionally, if you were to do that within AC, you would need various modules for different purposes. Thermal modelling is part of checking how a design performs (macro- and micro scale too), the same applies to acoustics or structural checking... It all depends on what your definition of an "architect" is.

We could easily end up with an Inventor fused ANSYS, that is also a generic 3D modeller with a built-in cutting edge pathtracing engine in it for rendering, apart from a node-based representation of the whole model like in Houdini to finally say "I can do all this in one package"...