I need a tip related to internship or job

[Anonymous]

I am apologizing for writing at this forum, maybe this is not the right place. If it isn`t please move it to the right one.

About a month ago i got a degree at the University of Architecture and Civil Engineering in Serbia. While studing, i adored the norwegian group Snohetta architecture, they were my exemplar of modern architecture.
Some year ago there was a lecture at my university regarding some Norwegian architecture, and all back then to present days i am just amazed with the architecture of your country. Such a freedom in shapes and moves. Some pilot building made by a norwagein in Dubai, (white curved lines on the desert sand) also amazed me. Therefor i was, and still am determined to check some of that northern architectural move, that is to work in it.

Well, after all this fairy tale words, here is what i have wanted to ask you: Last week a firm from Oslo sended me a request for an internship (3 to 6 months). At the end they told me that this internship will not going to be paid. Is this a common thing about internships in Norway? I have expected at least some minimum wage, enough for food and a rented room. I don`t know what to do now.

If you have any tip for me please, send it. Btw i have sended over 60 requests for internship or job. to some Oslo arhitectural firms i have found on the net, and at least 30 of them sended me a negative reply. This all looks like a nightmare, if you can give me any kind of help, please do.

If you have spare time, check some projects of mine:
http://www.filefront.com/15564335/projects.rar/

They are not something special, i have still a long way of learning.


Thanks a lot for the all the help and advices.

[ares997]

Ask for what you want in all cases. People will always try and take advantage of talent and skill every chance they get. Why pay for something when you can get it for free? Is how they see it.

I say if it interests you then tell them what is on your mind. The worst thing you can do in this profession and in your life is not stand up and speak your mind.

Architecture is a profession and as professionals we need to make money and pay people. That is the fundamental by which we all organize our activities in our societies. Thus if you work for someone helping them create something they are getting paid to do, then there is no reason why you shouldn't be paid. Are they going to design your house for free in return? Certainly not.

"Show me the money."

[Mats_Knutsson]

Hi,

Send an e-mail to or call Graphisoft in Norway (www.graphisoft.no). Talk to Frode. There are many many very ArchiCAD-savvy architects in Norway and with the current economical situation jobs are hard to find anywhere.
Good luck hunting!
Internship without pay sounds ridiculous!

Cheers,
Mats

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the tip Ares. I believe, i did stood up, by telling them that some kind of minimum wage would be fair enough, but they repeated that no money will be payed. Accept it or not -fair enough.

Mats, thank for the reply mate. I haven`t understood you quite well. What have you ment by this:

There are many many very ArchiCAD-savvy architects in Norway and with the current economical situation jobs are hard to find anywhere.

I went over to the Archicad Norway community at http://www.graphisoft.no/brukerforum.aspx but i haven`t managed to enter to it. As i have understood it using the Google translator, i need to have some kind of private firm so i could register to theirs forum? I did filled the form at the link above, but no account activation email has been recieved to my mail inbox since.
There`s an email address i have found: also support@graphisoft.no can i send an email to it?

Once again thank you for the help Mats.

[Bricklyne Clarence]

nedostizni wrote:
Thanks for the tip Ares. I believe, i did stood up, by telling them that some kind of minimum wage would be fair enough, but they repeated that no money will be payed. Accept it or not -fair enough.

......

Personally, I think you should reject that offer (assuming you haven't already).
Unpaid internships are the bane of our profession, and a really big problem here in North America.

For some strange reason, the same people who went to the same architecture schools and training as you adid, and who know that architects and architectural designers are amongst the most skilled and highly trained and knowledgeable professionals in the working world, seem to believe that it's okay to have someone working for you and not pay them anything for their skills or efforts. Or to not pay them worth they're worth.
If someone is good enough and skilled enough for you to want to hire them and have them do work for you, then they should be good enough to get paid what they are worth or what you both believe and can agree they are worth, otherwise don't hire them at all.

And I believe the problem is perpetuated and worsened by both the people hiring as well as the people and mostly students accepting the jobs, since by doing so, you basically establish the fact that you are willing to work for free or for less than you're worth, and which in turns hurts others coming in into the profession after you, who might not be so willing to under-value themselves (and rightly so - an architecture education is neither cheap, nor easy).

At the end of the day it hurts the entire profession because you'll never hear of medical residents and medical interns, paralegals/law interns, and entry-level workers in other high-level professional vocations working for free - even under the guise of just "training" or "apprenticeships". Is it any wonder therefore that Architecture is one of the hardest hit (of not THE hardest hit) professions during this recession, and that it always tends to be the hardest hit profession whenever these recessions come around every 10-15 years?

You know what it cost you to get that Architecture degree and education - both in terms of money, sweat and effort. How much value are you willing to place on all that in terms of your future profession and what you expect people to pay you now or in the future? And not just your architecture bosses but also your potential future clients that you will be designing buildings for.

[Anonymous]

Thanks fot the tip Clarence. Believe me, i do understand every word you just told me. But it seems that the financial boundaries between nations on this world made us (the architects, and i can freely say the poeple itself) a slighlty diffrent.

You see, i respect me and my work (i got the first degree in my class - at the 22. January. nobody from my class haven`t got it yet, and probably won`t in a month or so) my parents effort and all the money and svet i brought in to make this. But, when you live i country of third world, your perspective is a bit different. I am writting this reply from my former university`s hall (they have only one internet connected pc in the hall) - iit might sound strange to you, but i don`t have a internet connection at home, cause it`s to expencive. Therefor i am willing to accept any kind of work, even with a minimum wage (enough for a room and food). But even i have some boundaries - i can`t live on air, so if they are not willing to pay that minimum amount, i will ( and i did) have to reject the internship request.

[Anonymous]

Hi nedostizni
Well, how about a compromise?
Make a counter offer?
33 yrs ago I offered to work for free to learn how to frame houses.
Although I only did this for short time, it got me in.
It showed I was willing to learn at my expense, not the companies.
But three months does seem too long.
However compared to the yrs you spent paying the school, it could be considered a middle ground in this current world economy.
At least you would not be paying tuition and then you would have real world experience and have made contacts.
Good luck
lec

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the tip loc. Norway is probably the most expencive country in the world, and Oslo particulary (the company that offered an internship is from Norway). I assume that i would need minimum 1000 euros (about 1350 US dollars) a month, wich is quite a lot compared to salaries in serbia (200, 300 euros - 270, 400 US dollars)

Thanks for the tip though.

[Anonymous]

We have a girl in our office on an internship, she has to leave early every other day to go and work in a supermarket. She has picked up ArchiCAD quicker and works as hard as anyone in the office. She gets paid expenses, i.e. for her petrol to get to work and her sandwiches. I think unpaid internships are ridiculous but all the time there are people willing to do them then there will be employers willing to exploit them. The fact remains that she would not be working or getting any experience in the industry without that willingness. I don't know how easy it will be for her to get her current employer or a future one to pay her for work she's willing to do for free though.

Bricklyne's response is spot on. Reject it and find something less than ideal (in terms of the likely Architectural merit of your projects) that pays, once you have experience, you will have choice. Some choice, at least.

Best of luck to you, and I don't think Serbia is even classed as a developing country, and certainly not 'Third World', you have Universities after all!

[Dwight]

I'm surprised at the reaction to offers of unpaid internships. In fact, I was once told that it takes two years for an architecture grad to begin to pay his way in a firm.

In my experience, it seems quite reasonable to offer unpaid internships because you are taking in an enthusiastic person who is completely unproven and inexperienced in a real office environment and letting them see what the working life will be like without a great expectation of productivity, and:

- has no useful building code knowledge
- might have a weak command of language
– might have a disruptive sense of entitlement, not a humble, grovelling sense of gratitude.
- might not understand construction documents, our basic language and profit-maker.
and:
- can be a complete idiot.

For example, I was working in an office in the mid-nineties [back when we had drafting] after about fifteen years of multi-family design experience. I was given a UBC grad [hired and paid] as a helper. The job was to refine plan sketches for a series of low-income townhouses.

I drew one up accurately to scale, making a series of quick, overlaid freehand tracings for alternative layouts. The helper was to use the building code for corridor and stair sizes, working from my scaled, dimensioned guide.

The idiot just traced over my sketches. So there were 5 foot wide stairs, etc. and nothing made sense.

"Didn't they teach you anything about townhouse planning at school?"
"No. We did villas."

Right. I bought him Dr. Seuss's new book that day.

Good luck with interns.