Railing issue with L Shaped Staircase

[Anonymous]

I've used many stairmakers before, they all fail to create a correct looking railing for a L Shaped staircase with winders. I was hoping ArchiCAD's new railing tool could offer a solution, yet after playing with the settings for hours, I still end up with an ugly turning. I've tried editing the railing but to no avail.

It seems that most of the stairs in the demo have landings instead of winders, could it be that the algorithm for railings on winder staircase isn't well tested? Why won't the railing automatically add a vertical segment to the top rail to connect to the post on top of the winder as done in real life? Or have I missed something?

Many thanks!

[Barry Kelly]

If the automatic placing of the railing does not work (i.e. using magic wand) then you may need to place the nodes you need in 3D view.
Or just manipulate what you have and add or move nodes to suit the treads that you want the railing to use.

Also the connection for top rail, hand rail and rails will influence how the rails all connect or not.

Having said that I can do what I think is the same thing 3 times and get 3 different results.
So these railings are not an easy thing to manipulate.

Barry.

[Anonymous]

Hi Barry, thanks for the reply.

I've tried moving the railing node in 3D edit mode but it doesn't help. The balusters become suspended in the air instead of sitting on the treads.

For some reason I had to recreate the railing in order for the connection type settings to work, they became non responsive on the previous railing. Perhaps some sort of glitch?

After some trail and error I end up with this, still not right... it'll work for far away renders but upon close inspection no carpenter would find it pleasing ( curvature in top rail is too complex )

In reality there's basically two option for the turning, one is what you have in your screenshot ( which I can't seem to replicate on my staircase ), such that the rail on the lower L connects to the post directly.

https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-47913670625546/Cable-Railing-10.jpg

The other is adding a vertical drop (this seems to correspond to the goose neck connection type but I tried different settings and couldn't get it to work ), then continuing the rail.

http://www.ebizbydesign.com/data/img/nice-l-shaped-stairs-design-stair-railings-db-homes.jpg

In both cases, the top rail should maintain the same slope as the staircase for aesthetics as well as to conform to code.

I suppose I'll stick to this effect for now since I won't be doing close up renders soon, if all fails I guess I'll convert the railing to morph

[Barry Kelly]

This is what I mean by manipulating the baseline nodes in 3D.
You need the baseline to follow the top of the stair flights.
The image on the left is the automatically associated nodes when placed with the magic wand.

One node needs to be lifted and a second one created so you end up with 2 nodes in line vertically at the winder.

The middle image has the 'disconnected' top rail and the one on the right has the 'gooseneck'.

The end post node will need to be adjusted individually so it can have an offset, to move it up the stair a bit.
The winder post remains as a single post with no offset.

The heights of the post can also be set separately by selecting them in the 'Edit' mode.

Once you start adjusting nodes/post individually you will notice a small yellow warning triangle in the railing settings next to the nodes.
This means you can no longer change the overall settings of the railing (like connections) as they will have no effect.
You have to go into 'Edit' mode and select the parts you want to alter and go into the settings for those parts.
So to edit the connection you have to go into 'Edit' mode, select the top rail then TAB on the end hotspot until you get the 'Top rail connection'.
It can be a bit of a challenge sometimes.

Otherwise press the "Reset" button at the bottom of the rail settings then OK, then you should be able to make global changes to the rail again.
You will have to adjust your post heights again and possibly even move the baseline nodes as well.

It is all a lot of experimentation.
I am trying to get my head around it as well, as I am currently trying to set up favourites for our template and methods for our draftees to follow.

Barry.

[Barry Kelly]

This is all I did for the gooseneck settings.

Barry.

[Barry Kelly]

Barry wrote:
The end post node will need to be adjusted individually so it can have an offset, to move it up the stair a bit.
The winder post remains as a single post with no offset.

As I say it is all experimenting.
I am finding this first node position can not be offset by selecting the node (not the post) separately (although I am sure I have done this before).
The top node (top of the stairs) can be adjusted by selecting it however.

This first node is still controlled by the default settings when selecting the entire railing (as in attached image).

The nodes can only be selected when you 'Edit' the stair and turn on "Segments and Nodes".
TIP - right mouse click on "Segments and Nodes" and it will turn those on and turn off all the other elements (post, rail, balusters, etc.) leaving just the scheme of the stair (like the curtain wall scheme).
Element visualisation can be turned on/off just like you do for layers.

Barry.

[DGSketcher]

Winders are used a lot in the UK and the current rail tool doesn't make it easy to produce a "realistic" model. I have resorted to creating individual lengths of railing as this seems to be the only way to keep the handrail straight (parallel to nosing) between changes of direction. It does however need careful 3D editing to get the rail nodes into the right place. I also tried adding nodes but to create a vertical step but usually ended up with errors if the nodes were perfectly aligned on plan.

With regards the stairs and winders I have found the inside corner strings don't work too well either, the results typically leave the strings significantly short of the corner and if there isn't a full tread before or after the winder the internal strings create some weird shapes. It is not uncommon in the UK to start or finish a stair with strings and a three equal angle winder.

I guess GS are still working all this out. I know from my own attempts at trying to create a basic timber stair with GDL that there are a lot of tricky connections to consider. What GS have achieved so far is commendable but the treatment of the type of winders illustrated above definitely needs considered in greater detail. I would even suggest that like other objects they may need to consider breaking the stair program into different structure types e.g. timber, concrete, steel if the connections for flights & rails are ever going to work correctly.

I do have an old timber stair catalog (saved as PDF), which is a useful guide to the "normal" timber domestic type stairs used in the UK if someone at GS wants a copy.

[Anonymous]

Hi Barry, really appreciate your tips. Following your detailed explanation, I managed to replicate the gooseneck effect, though it's definitely not an easy task. The order which you add and elevate the two nodes yields drastically different results, I'm trying to figure out a systematic way that produces consistent results. A key point is that the two nodes musn't land on top of each other, otherwise they merge into one, a 1/32" spacing will do.

However, while the 3D looks fine, the 2D representation is bad: the break line and railing outline are hidden, I'm trying to get it to display properly across two floors...

It would be nice if ArchiCad can optimize winder railings since they're so popular.

[Barry Kelly]

Glad to see you are getting this under control.

The stair I used has the winders generating exactly from the corner (0 offset) so my two nodes are in exactly the same x and y location but with a different (z) height.
The nodes need to be vertically in line to create just the one post - otherwise you will have multiple corner posts.

I can't quite see from you image but if your winders have a corner offset then you will have to imagine a line at the edge of each flight touching the top of each tread (i.e. the stair baseline).
The two railing baseline nodes should be at the intersection of this stair line and a vertical line at the exact corner of the stair.

In my case it is the exact top of the treads but if you have an offset it will be an imaginary point.

So the two railing nodes need to be vertically in line with each other at heights that follow the stair run.
Basically the path of the top rail if you were to place it directly on the stair.

Then you offset the gooseneck so it runs down in front of the post.
That is the only figure I altered in the gooseneck, the height or drop comes automatically from the railing base node heights.
You can add radius values to the corners if you want to make it a little fancier.

Barry.

[Barry Kelly]

For a stair where the winders have a corner offset I would do this.
Projecting the tread line and the vertical corner to determine the rail node positions.

Barry.