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25000 s.f. project taking 4 hours to update 3D document

Mjules
Booster
The standard BIM software used in Quebec is Revit even at the level of European firms based there. One of the fundamental reasons is that more time is spent drawing with ArchiCAD in projects from 25 000 to 200 000 square feet. ArchiCAD updates drawings anytime and the option to control these updates doesn't work properly. Time is so precious that these firms prefer using a BIM software that is much better suited to delivering projects on time.

Enclosed is a screenshot related to the power used by ArchiCAD for a simple project of 25 000 sqf. The second file includes an update, which can take up to 4 hours to generate the 3D document. No firm in Quebec can accept such time consuming.
bouhmidage wrote:
Hello !
i'm planning to move to Canada as Permanent Resident in the next year, i'm an archicad user since 2010, i use it for all my jobs, BIM modelling and coordination , and teaches it in the north american university
What are the chances of finding jobs in Canada?
Thanks !
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10
34 REPLIES 34

Braza
Newcomer
Barry wrote:
So you can stop a section/elevation from updating automatically when you open it only in the section/elevation settings.
Likewise a drawing on the layout can be set to manual or automatic in the drawing settings.
But again a reminder, when set to manual use caution.
Mjules wrote:
I use the word drawing in its technical sense in architecture, as generally recognized by the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards (NCARB).
Just to illustrate and for future reference:
Barry is well referring to this option inside the drawing selection settings:

Paulo Henrique Santos, Architect
AC24_INT#3008 / I7 / 16Gb / 512Mb SSD / Windows 10

Mjules
Booster
Braza,

Thanks for your precious time!

I don't know which AC version you use currently, but the enclosed image can give you a better idea about the option I use for sections / elevations in ArchiCAD 25. Despite this, the problem persists even when generating 3D documents. This issue is so serious that the Graphisoft technical support takes it into consideration in order to detect the real cause.
Braza wrote:
Barry wrote:
So you can stop a section/elevation from updating automatically when you open it only in the section/elevation settings.
Likewise a drawing on the layout can be set to manual or automatic in the drawing settings.
But again a reminder, when set to manual use caution.
Mjules wrote:
I use the word drawing in its technical sense in architecture, as generally recognized by the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards (NCARB).
Just to illustrate and for future reference:
Barry is well referring to this option inside the drawing selection settings:


Screen01.jpg
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

jl_lt
Contributor
Do you have this same problem with sections? I dont know the internal workings of archicad but maybe the infinite range might have something to do or maybe not. Why dont you limit the view both in height and depth and see what happens? i always limit the distance to the limit of the project.

Podolsky
Newcomer
Exactly because of this reason I introduced in my template 5 levels of details, that every GDL object reads. But it does not work this way with native ArchiCAD elements - walls, beams etc.
To avoid similar 'overkill' of 3d model with polygons it's necessary to follow quite strict logic of reducing unnecessary polygons in elements - for example if it's custom profiles for beams and columns.
And also to have more powerful computer. Also good practise to open task manager and take a look how much RAM ArchiCAD is using on current project. If it's something that can be quickly improved - then do that. Also people often open many instances of ArchiCAD and another software (for example 3D Max, 100 pages of Internet in browser, AutoCAD, movie, music...) - so sometimes RAM just physically all in use and then everything working really slow - because OS is using hard disk to record files that usually in virtual memory.

Mjules
Booster
Hi All,

I appreciate both your insights, Jl_Lt and Podolsky!

Neither the drawing "status," as renamed in the recent AC version, nor the performance of any computers could resolve this issue related to the higher hotspots including in the structural members of the project, as required by the California Building Code... That issue is now classified as a bug by the Graphisoft technical support office. According to the engineer, who worked on finding the root cause of that issue, ArchiCAD has not been designed "to support 600 000 hotspots in the same file." Now, they will work to fix that bug, which I have the internal ticket number.

Thanks to all of you who have participated in helping me look for the root cause of this issue. Your participation in this forum will help ArchiCAD keep getting better!

Regards,
Martin
Podolsky wrote:
To avoid similar 'overkill' of 3d model with polygons it's necessary to follow quite strict logic of reducing unnecessary polygons in elements - for example if it's custom profiles for beams and columns.
And also to have more powerful computer. Also good practise to open task manager and take a look how much RAM ArchiCAD is using on current project.
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

Lingwisyer
Virtuoso
Just curious, what are all the hotspots for? Are they needed? What is the reasoning behind the building code req?
AC18-23 AUS 7000
Self-taught, bend it till it breaks.
Win10 | E5620 x 2 | 24GB | K2200

Mjules
Booster
We should create another post to discuss the glazing system according to the relevant sections of the code. I just designed and drawn the structural members supporting the glazing system, but ArchiCAD 25 created much more unnecessary hotspots by itself. That's why it's also been classified as a bug!

Here are some ideas about the related sections from the code. The glazing system requirements are too long for this specific post. That's why I don't paste them here:

"1603.1.4 Wind design data.
The following information related to wind loads shall be shown, regardless of whether wind loads govern the design of the lateral force-resisting system of the structure:

1.Basic design wind speed, V, miles per hour and allowable stress design wind speed, Vasd, as determined in accordance with Section 1609.3.1.

2.Risk category.

3.Wind exposure. Applicable wind direction if more than one wind exposure is utilized.

4.Applicable internal pressure coefficient.

5.Design wind pressures to be used for exterior component and cladding materials not specifically designed by the registered design professional responsible for the design of the structure, psf (kN/m2).

1603.1.5 Earthquake design data.
The following information related to seismic loads shall be shown, regardless of whether seismic loads govern the design of the lateral force-resisting system of the structure:

1.Risk category.

2.Seismic importance factor, Ie.

3.Mapped spectral response acceleration parameters, SS and S1.

4.Site class.

5.Design spectral response acceleration parameters, SDS and SD1.

6.Seismic design category.

7.Basic seismic force-resisting system(s).

8.Design base shear(s).

9.Seismic response coefficient(s), CS.

10.Response modification coefficient(s), R.

11.Analysis procedure used.

1603.1.6 Geotechnical information.
The design load-bearing values of soils shall be shown on the construction documents.

4.In coastal high hazard areas and coastal A zones, the proposed elevation of the bottom of the lowest horizontal structural member of the lowest floor, including the basement.

1603.1.8 Special loads.
Special loads that are applicable to the design of the building, structure or portions thereof, including but not limited to the loads of machinery or equipment, and that are greater than specified floor and roof loads shall be specified by their descriptions and locations."
Lingwisyer wrote:
Just curious, what are all the hotspots for? Are they needed? What is the reasoning behind the building code req?
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

furtonb
Enthusiast
Mjules wrote:
We should create another post to discuss the glazing system according to the relevant sections of the code. I just designed and drawn the structural members supporting the glazing system, but ArchiCAD 25 created much more unnecessary hotspots by itself. That's why it's also been classified as a bug!
So are you creating a GDL object from the members? It could be useful to open the scripts and simplify the 3D representation (unless you are generating a 1:1 section/elevation, it won't be visible anyway) to show a bounding box or mesh to your needs, also commenting the hotspots and keeping only a few really necessary ones. Morphs tend to be really heavy, it's easy to shovel together millions of polygons in a single manufacturer made object - movable furniture especially, and that just kills the 3D generated views.

Maybe I missed something, but how is the required specification relevant to the hotspots? You could store all these in properties assigned to a single polygon and still have all the data in the model with a much more responsive experience.
actively using: AC22-25 INT | Rhino6-7 | macOS / win10

Mjules
Booster
Yes, I did create a GDL object. This is one of the possible solutions that the Graphisoft engineer and I have already explored together, but it did not work either. The created GDL object is more problematic.

Regarding the morph tool, Graphisoft must remove it from the software. It is becoming more and more unnecessary for users.

The specifications don't require hotspots in ArchiCAD. The people who developed the building codes did not take into account a specific software. Construction documents and building codes are an important aspect of building design. The knowledge of building materials, building systems and regulations are a vital and necessary part of an architect's practice in North America. Drawings and their specifications communicate to all invested parties the design and the constructability of a building. These documents when completed are used to apply for a building permit and for project costs. In this specific case, I didn't know if the tension rod brace cable systems that I created to support the glazing systems in relation to lateral forces like wind and earthquake in San Francisco were going to cause me all of these problems in ArchiCAD 25 especially. I can't even save the file back as an older version of ArchiCAD. In California, it is one of the most stringent code environments, since they have experienced the most extremes, including wildfires, big wind and earthquakes. A glazing system that exceeds 40' in height must be very well supported accordingly...

About the single polygon you suggested, I can try to share the file with you if it will not bother you.

So are you creating a GDL object from the members?

Morphs tend to be really heavy, it's easy to shovel together millions of polygons in a single manufacturer made object - movable furniture especially, and that just kills the 3D generated views.

Maybe I missed something, but how is the required specification relevant to the hotspots?

You could store all these in properties assigned to a single polygon and still have all the data in the model with a much more responsive experience.
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

bouhmidage
Enthusiast
some of my students works, using archicad and grasshopper, files were so heavy and full of details, maximum of 2 minutes to lead a façade or a section on a gamin laptop,
https://www.facebook.com/bouhmidkammoun/posts/4436325999771677
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, RTX 3080 10 GB

Archicad 23

Windows 10 professional

https://www.behance.net/Nuance-Architects

Mjules
Booster
You are definitely not yet using ArchiCAD 25 to teach these students. Therefore, there are no bugs for you!
bouhmidage wrote:
some of my students works, using archicad and grasshopper, files were so heavy and full of details, maximum of 2 minutes to lead a façade or a section on a gamin laptop,
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

bouhmidage
Enthusiast
I always prefer to stay 1 version behind the last released one,
to keep students away from bugs, and i tell them, every software has bugs after release, we work on this version, but you can try the newer one not for class work, for your own tests,
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32 GB RAM, RTX 3080 10 GB

Archicad 23

Windows 10 professional

https://www.behance.net/Nuance-Architects

Mjules
Booster
Anyway, with ArchiCAD, I didn't know if these kinds of bugs could exist. This is for the first time this has happened to me, where I can't even save back the file as an older version because of that.
bouhmidage wrote:
I always prefer to stay 1 version behind the last released one,
to keep students away from bugs, and i tell them, every software has bugs after release, we work on this version, but you can try the newer one not for class work, for your own tests,
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

furtonb
Enthusiast
Mjules wrote:
Construction documents and building codes are an important aspect of building design. The knowledge of building materials, building systems and regulations are a vital and necessary part of an architect's practice in North America. Drawings and their specifications communicate to all invested parties the design and the constructability of a building. These documents when completed are used to apply for a building permit and for project costs.
I think it's similar all over the globe. Archicad is a great tool overall to help in this, regardless of the bashing it receives on this forum sometimes.
In this specific case, I didn't know if the tension rod brace cable systems that I created to support the glazing systems in relation to lateral forces like wind and earthquake in San Francisco were going to cause me all of these problems in ArchiCAD 25 especially.
Usually it's the structural engineer's task to specify these things in my country, you just make references to those drawings/specifications and pull certain geometry to the architectural documentation. Still it's not clear to me what problems you were facing, most information can be alphanumeric and geometry can be simplified to make computers able to handle huge models. AC is definitely not a structural design software and there is a limit to what it can reasonably handle in terms of geometric complexity. In my opinion it's usually within the bounds what is necessary to provide all the documents for permits/CD/costing/etc.
I can't even save the file back as an older version of ArchiCAD.
Saving back is possible as a .pln to the previous version under File/Save as. If you use AC25, then to AC24, then from AC24 to AC23, and so on... Some information could get lost along the way (examples are new stairs, railings, etc. to previous versions), and library migration backwards is a real pain unfortunately.
About the single polygon you suggested, I can try to share the file with you if it will not bother you.
I can take a look, but my free time is rather limited these days.
actively using: AC22-25 INT | Rhino6-7 | macOS / win10

Mjules
Booster
I have no interest in denigrating ArchiCAD. I have described to you facts that I have experienced with the software.
Martin Luther Jules
AC 10-25 (Full)
Alienware | 64 GB RAM | Windows 10

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