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About to leave AutoCad - is ArchiCad for me?

Anonymous
Not applicable
I am on the verge of jumping ship from 2d AutoCad, and I am looking at either ArchiCad, Revit or Allplan.

I mainly get involved in small domestic and commercial extensions and alterations in the UK. Nothing extravagent, just normal traditional stuff really.
Workload is increasing, and I would like to be in bed before 3AM, and have weekends off too!

I suppose I want more automation (timber roof layouts and schedules etc), and less repetition (move a wall in one view and not having to alter 2 or 3 plans and 4 elevations). Clients seem to want 3d renders too, ( I currently use Sketchup for this), so good accurate 3d images would be nice.

So really, I just need to know why I should pick ArchiCad instead of one of its competitors?

I know the good points, but what are the bad points?
Can I put beams, doors, and walls where 'I' want them to go, and can I draw the eaves detail that 'I' want? Can I do this without fighting the software?

One major consideration, is that I need to get accustomed to working with a 3d model, so I not only have to learn the software, but also adjust my working methods. Any idea of how long ArchiCad will take to actually learn and for me to become proficient? Can I just get stuck into it and produce drawings quickly?

If anyone has had to make a similar choice, then I would be really interested in why ArchiCad was chosen.

Cheers
8 REPLIES 8
Djordje
Ace
paulw wrote:
I am on the verge of jumping ship from 2d AutoCad, and I am looking at either ArchiCad, Revit or Allplan.
Forget AllPlan; the other two are the only ones that fit the bill.
paulw wrote:
I mainly get involved in small domestic and commercial extensions and alterations in the UK. Nothing extravagent, just normal traditional stuff really. Workload is increasing, and I would like to be in bed before 3AM, and have weekends off too!
If I were you, I would look around me and visit people who already use any of the listed. Pick their brains a little. Go through the list of the registered users here (quite a few Reviteers too) and see who is in your geographical vicinity.

Also, see what are the pricing options. Not something you should forget about ...
paulw wrote:
I suppose I want more automation (timber roof layouts and schedules etc), and less repetition (move a wall in one view and not having to alter 2 or 3 plans and 4 elevations). Clients seem to want 3d renders too, ( I currently use Sketchup for this), so good accurate 3d images would be nice.
Plain vanilla ArchiCAD should do all of the above; for really good rendering, download the (still) free public beta of AV Works at www.abvent.com - there is a thread in Rendering and Multimedia forum.
paulw wrote:
So really, I just need to know why I should pick ArchiCad instead of one of its competitors?
Because you like it better? Because it is easy to use? Because there is a experienced friendly soul near by that you can call when you get stuck (as you will, don't worry ... whatever you choose).
paulw wrote:
I know the good points, but what are the bad points?
The worst point, again in using any new software, is you. Or me. What you know and what you are used to is always easy, what you are learning is hard and the old stuff is sooo tempting ... but don't.

The bad points? Hmmm ... did not become the most used architectural software in 20 years.
paulw wrote:
One major consideration, is that I need to get accustomed to working with a 3d model, so I not only have to learn the software, but also adjust my working methods. Any idea of how long ArchiCad will take to actually learn and for me to become proficient? Can I just get stuck into it and produce drawings quickly?
Not on your own. The way of working is so different, that at first it will be totally confusing. You already have made the decision, now the implementation - invest in good training and consulting, have someone lead you through the first project. That's it. And, true for all of the mentioned.

The using of ArchiCAD can be learned in a week. How to adjust it to your practice and use it to the full 250% is still to be discussed ... as everyone has an own way.
paulw wrote:
If anyone has had to make a similar choice, then I would be really interested in why ArchiCad was chosen.
It would be best if your fellow UK pracititioners chimed in. One of the strong points of ArchiCAD is that it is not hard wired for a market, and can be used anywhere in the world, with all the unit systems etc. The special tweaks are also available for special markets, but AFAIK in the UK you get International, which I am using here in the UAE and used to use it back home in (was then) Yugoslavia - no problems.

Whatever you do - remember that you are making a decision and an investment that is going to define your professional life for the future. Not something to go about lightly!

Good luck! This Forum is open for all the questions!
Djordje



ArchiCAD since 4.55 ... 1995
HP Omen
Anonymous
Not applicable
paulw wrote:
I am on the verge of jumping ship from 2d AutoCad...
May I ask why you are jumping ship from 2d AutoCAD and not considering 3D AutoCAD? If you aren't using AutoCAD LT, you do know that you have 3D tools already, right? Many of the features that ArchiCAD users tout are available with AutoCAD, if you know how. For example, if you build your AutoCAD model in 3D, you can view and edit the elevations in paperspace.

You might look at my past posts. I'm very critical of ArchiCAD, but I still use it. And I'm not completely ignorant of ArchiCAD either. I am a 3 time tip of the month winner. If I may say so, I feel I contribute to this board pretty well, in bringing bugs to light, asking for new features, and for posting tips. Frankly, if I opened my own Architectural firm, I would have a very very very difficult decision between ArchiCAD and AutoCAD. There is a lot that I like about ArchiCAD and a lot I love about AutoCAD (particularily customizability and, well, lack of buginess). The bottom line though is, if ArchiCAD wasn't so buggy, inconsistent, non-standard, and they let you create your own custom routines and menus and icons, I would recommend it in a heartbeat. But it is buggy, inconsistent, and non-standard, and they don't let you customize it. It's the buggiest program I have ever used in my entire life. And I have used a lot of buggy programs. I personally have found over a hundred new bugs in ArchiCAD. I have only even experienced maybe a half dozen AutoCAD bugs, all of them known and long since reported. So I find it difficult to recommend it with feeling. Nevertheless, even though you can do many of the most useful ArchiCAD features with vanilla AutoCAD, ArchiCAD makes it easier to do these things. Of course, don't forget, there are some things you can do with AutoCAD that are difficult with ArchiCAD, like design/model furniture, which is pretty freaking important for a 3D program, especially one that is so often used as a springboard for computer renderings.

You can indeed put all of the things you described exactly (well within Architectural standards) where they need to go. And as for getting to bed by 3AM. I've worked for 3 Architects now, and I have to say that the office I work for now is the most laid back professional atmosphere I have ever worked in. We have little difficulty getting our jobs out on time. And I attribute much of that to ArchiCAD, and well designed office standards. Eric Batte, whom I work with, IS Mr. Standardized. If you choose ArchiCAD visit his website.

That leads me to learning curve. I learned most of what I know now in 2 days of ArchiCAD training, which I did out of a couple of books, and Eric's guidance. It took me months to really learn AutoCAD (though I taught myself) and it took years for me to become a real expert. Now, I attribute much of ArchiCAD's short learning curve to its simplicity. Frankly, there is much that you cannot do with ArchiCAD. For example, you cannot rotate elements about their x or y axis. Most proponents would say, "so what? Do you really need to rotate that door?" But I'm sure there have been several occasions where many of them wish they could rotate something. Graphisoft only just this past release added boolean modeling, and a badly implimented polyline. Keep in mind, ArchiCAD IS older than AutoCAD. If there isn't a lot to it... if the program doesn't have depth, then of course it's easy to learn. AutoCAD is an extremely powerful program. There is very little that you can't do with it. ArchiCAD is good for orthogonal and standard buildings. If you do deconstructivism, it's definately not the program for you. Also, if you remodel some unusual buildings, you might have difficulty. And if you do not embrace the 3D aspect, then definately do not go with ArchiCAD. Its 2D tools bite. Granted, it's difficult to ignore the 3D part. It is a 3D program after all.

For details, you will be working in 2D, so you will have a black eye and a busted rib on occasion. The new version has a "detail tool" but it's not very good. Really it just takes a cutout of one 2D view of the 3D model and creates a new static 2D view for you to modify. It's not 2 way communication. If you edit something in the detail window, it doesn't affect the 3D model. This is the sort of thing I have grown to expect from Graphisoft. They have an excellent idea, then partially implement it. The elevation tool is much better. It IS 2 way communication, until you unlink it. You can draw a wall in the plan window, place a window, then switch to an elevation view and move the window in that plane, and THAT affects the 3D model. Unlinking it turns all of the elements into 2D lines, arcs, fills (hatches), etc. You might unlink the elevation window after you finalize the placement of windows, doors, beams, etc. because the linked elevation can be pretty slow.

One good difference between AutoDesk and Graphisoft is that Graphisoft at least "feels" closer to the end user than AutoDesk. That might be because the AutoCAD community is so large and AutoDesk's voice gets drowned out. It might be because of the interactivity on this discussion board. It might personal... because of Eric Batte's relationship with Graphisoft. Or it might in fact be because Graphisoft listens to its users more than AutoDesk does. I don't know. But I do know two things. 1) Graphisoft has granted a couple of my personal wishes. I know they wouldn't have been included in version 8 if I didn't ask for them. 2) If Graphisoft does listen to its users, then why on Earth is it still so buggy? Most of us would like for version 9 to be simply version 8 but bug free and well designed. No additional features at all. Just provide us with an excellently designed program. It needs to be completely redesigned. That will lay a foundation for version 10 to be excellently designed and so on. Right now, the ArchiCAD foundation is crumbling. Without rebuilding, adding new rooms, remodeling, and refurnishing is just a waste of time.

Anyway, all I say comes from the perspective of a fairly computer savvy user. I know quite a few windows tricks that are generally available with other programs, but aren't with ArchiCAD. I speak of Window's standards. I feel like I am driving blind with ArchiCAD sometimes, simply because I am so used to tools that are unavailable. But if you aren't dependent on those tools, you will probably not ever miss them. Most people don't.

I am a bit of an enigma in the ArchiCAD community. Most users love it to death. When I tell my AutoCAD using friends what I think of ArchiCAD, they are shocked. All they have ever heard are rave reviews so when someone shines the light on the weaker areas they don't quite believe what they are hearing. So take what I say with a grain of salt. But don't expect a well designed program, because ArchiCAD isn't. In fact, it's pretty bad. But I use it and sometimes I can't imagine how I used to do many of the things I do in ArchiCAD with AutoCAD.

That's my opinion. I don't envy you. If it were me, I would probably have a more difficult of a time deciding. Of the 3 choices you mentioned, I can't imagine the other two competing with ArchiCAD. Revit is too new for me to trust it. ArchiCAD has been around for a very long time. But if you include AutoCAD, then the decision becomes tough, for me anyway.

Good luck.
stefan
Expert
I'm an ArchiCAD user, but I have used AutoCAD & Vectorworks professionally and I also teach AutoCAD, VIZ & SketchUp.
I was working in architectural practice, but I quit and moved to work on research & education at our university (dept. of architecture).
(Better put this up front, so you see my context).

I'd say, Revit or ArchiCAD can both deliver the goods, provided you care to follow the concept of the Building Model/Virtual Building. If you don't, then you better keep using AutoCAD 2D.

Bad points about ArchiCAD?
- I agree with Alex that it doesn't fully conform to the Windows platform nor the Macintosh platform. It's a cross-platform application, which means it does most of the things you need but often in a non-standard way. I don't like this.

- It is evolving in a good direction (I loved the new version 8.x, even with the bugs). Yet, after a 20-year development, it still needs a lot of refinement, even in the very usable and friendly interface.

- It can't do photo-realistic rendering, but since I can use 3ds max & Cinema4D I can "easily" export the ArchiCAD model and render there.
(I have a tendency of making tutorials on these kind of conversions...)

- It's calculation features are far from obvious... to say the least. Things are doable, but frankly said, most people don't do it since it's difficult to set up and have full control. That "leg" of the whole Virtual Building concept is a bit thin.

- It's a full 3D-program, yet it's interface is largely 2D. You spend most of the time working in the plan-view and building the 3D-model from there. If you do orthogonal & minimalistic design, that's not a problem. If you prefer freeform modelling, ArchiCAD is not the best choice.

- GDL is powerful and approachable, yet it's only object based. There is no scripting equivalent to Lisp or VBA to program the behavior of the program (unless you go the full C++-way with the API Devkit, which is a jump into the dark).

- Some tools lack consistency or are just simply missing (they happen to be available as add-ons).

- The documentation is usable and is getting better and better, yet there is a need for more workflow-oriented documention: how to get things done. "Step by Step" is a worthwhile effort yet it isn't detailled enough for more advanced users.
--- stefan boeykens --- bim-expert-architect-engineer-musician ---
Archicad27/Revit2023/Rhino8/Unity/Solibri/Zoom
MBP2023:14"M2MAX/Sonoma+Win11
Archicad-user since 1998
my Archicad Book
Anonymous
Not applicable
Thanks for those very detailed replies.

I will have to spend a bit more time reading them and taking the information in, so I'll have to post more later.

I have not considered ADT, as from what I've been reading it may have little future, so I don't want to invest time in getting to learn it if this will be wasted. Plus, it seems a bit of a 'make do' program as apposed to the others parametric based concept.
stefan
Expert
paulw wrote:
Thanks for those very detailed replies.

I will have to spend a bit more time reading them and taking the information in, so I'll have to post more later.

I have not considered ADT, as from what I've been reading it may have little future, so I don't want to invest time in getting to learn it if this will be wasted. Plus, it seems a bit of a 'make do' program as apposed to the others parametric based concept.
ADT is also capable and it's future will at least be certain for a few more years to come. But it is a complex beast and I much prefer ArchiCAD (and Revit). ADT2004 is much better then the previous versions and inherited quite a few Revit-interface concepts.
--- stefan boeykens --- bim-expert-architect-engineer-musician ---
Archicad27/Revit2023/Rhino8/Unity/Solibri/Zoom
MBP2023:14"M2MAX/Sonoma+Win11
Archicad-user since 1998
my Archicad Book
Anonymous
Not applicable
I notice that most replies do not mention Allplan much. Is this because you are not really aware of it, and so can't comment - or is it that Allplan is considered not worth it?

From what I could initially make out, it seems that Allplan is perhaps more comparable with ArchiCad, than Revit is.

One of my main requirements is the roof timber module. Allplan has this too, but Revit does not seem to have it. However, is the module as good and easy to use as it looks? Can it really accurately detail roof timber layout and sizes?

I think that Allplan and ArchiCad may suit my needs ( Revit is falling behind in my reckoning) but they all seem to do what I want from them. So I have now changed my thinking to "which of the three is the better for working with".

The pan and zoom of AutoCad and Sketchup are excellent. I would certainly miss this. Also the Autosnap and auto align of these are important. As are the keyborad shortcuts - L for line, m for move etc. Does working with ArchiCad match these for speed of input and moving about the drawing?

One thing I like on all my drawings is comprehensive descriptive text of what is what and where it goes, with leaders as required. Is this a problem - does text have lots of formating options?

I am a bit of a stickler for detail accuracy and positioning of things on my prints - even when at small scales or when it is not really required for the final print. So, are there any issues with layouts or detail printing? Some minor irritation could easily become a major one for me!

In respect of the bugs mentioned, are these fundamental bugs that would be experienced in most types of drawings? I am not sure that I would get involved in anything other that small domestic or commercial units of no more than 3 storeys and of traditional masonary and timber construction. Would any bugs apply to this type of design?

Would it be possible for me to learn the essentials from the online training files, enough for me to start drawing? I was thinking of getting training in the products before purchasing. I wondered if this would be necessary for ArchiCad as the help files look quite comprehensive.
Djordje
Ace
paulw wrote:
The pan and zoom of AutoCad and Sketchup are excellent. I would certainly miss this.
No, you will not. ArchiCAD pans and zooms with the scroll wheel jsut like the mentioned.
paulw wrote:
Also the Autosnap and auto align of these are important.
Autosnap of course.
paulw wrote:
As are the keyborad shortcuts - L for line, m for move etc. Does working with ArchiCad match these for speed of input and moving about the drawing?
Well ... first of all, you are NOT moving around the drawing, but around a virtual building. That concept has to be grasped; you are NOT working with a drawing at a time, but with the whole 3D model plus all the data.
paulw wrote:
One thing I like on all my drawings is comprehensive descriptive text of what is what and where it goes, with leaders as required. Is this a problem - does text have lots of formating options?
Leaders are there (label tool) but the text formatting has quite a bit to be wished for
paulw wrote:
I am a bit of a stickler for detail accuracy and positioning of things on my prints - even when at small scales or when it is not really required for the final print. So, are there any issues with layouts or detail printing? Some minor irritation could easily become a major one for me!
PlotMaker - organize and be a stickler as much as you like
paulw wrote:
Would it be possible for me to learn the essentials from the online training files, enough for me to start drawing? I was thinking of getting training in the products before purchasing. I wondered if this would be necessary for ArchiCad as the help files look quite comprehensive.
By ALL means get at least the basic training. It might seem not needed, but conceptually you need some handholding in the beginning. It is not about "you click here and then it does this", it is about the work approach and setup. THAT is important, and is best brought across by an experienced user. Blundering on your own can create misconseptions and wrong perception that might harm the ROI.
Djordje



ArchiCAD since 4.55 ... 1995
HP Omen
Anonymous
Not applicable
Djordje wrote:
paulw wrote:
As are the keyborad shortcuts - L for line, m for move etc. Does working with ArchiCad match these for speed of input and moving about the drawing?
Well ... first of all, you are NOT moving around the drawing, but around a virtual building. That concept has to be grasped; you are NOT working with a drawing at a time, but with the whole 3D model plus all the data.
Virtual Building: Semantics. You still work with drawings and frankly AutoCAD is a bit quicker. Keyboard entry is MUCH better in AutoCAD, especially since you can customize everything. But keep in mind that you only have really two files in ArchiCAD/Plotmaker: a layout file and a drawing file. This minimizes opening times and switching back and forth between files. There's a trade off.

Screen refresh time is emmensely quicker in AutoCAD. I remember a time when I used to be able to hold the CTRL+Tab keys down and AutoCAD would switch between two slightly different plans. The screen would refresh in about a 10th of a second so I could easily see the differences in the plans. The walls wouldn't flicker, but changes like additional wall outlets, lights furniture, notes, etc would flicker. So I could see what was different between the two drawings. ArchiCAD takes SEVERAL seconds to refresh certain views. And in general it takes over one second. Far too long for my trick to be useful.