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Reflected Ceiling Mode for Plan Window

James Murray
Contributor
This would be more than a display option, less than a new window.

AC has practically no reflected ceiling plan functionality. This common, critical drawing puts us right back in drafting mode, drawing over what we've modeled.

To show beams, we have to trace them with a solid line. We can't show the beams themselves- they're drawn with a dashed line to display correctly in plan.

In our office we show elements below 'above' in the RCP- dashed lines for counters, stair treads etc. Again, we trace.

Fortunately, we can script crown moulding objects that display properly for RCP. For everything else, we're in flatland.

I suggest:

1. A display option switch to put the floor plan window in reflected ceiling mode.

2. Added element settings for RCP pen and line type. When the switch is on, draw the element with these settings instead of the floor plan settings. (Once we can put a fill on a slab, etc, there would be a fill for RCP as well.)

3. Elements above showing 'One story down' would display their RCP attributes.

4. The switch would absorb with 'Reflected Ceiling' display option for doors and windows.

5. A global variable (GLOB_REFL_PLAN?), which would enable you to script your classical column to draw the capital instead of the base in RCP mode, for example.

This problem can't be solved with layers, display options, and globals as currently deployed. We need the tools to draw a proper RCP without abandoning the virtual building. It could be possible with just one new display option and a few new element attributes. I can easily see this as an 8.5 feature, feasible within the existing structure of the program, not a radical interface or database change. No need to make the plan window a model view.
James Murray
Rill Architects • macOS • OnLand.info
21 REPLIES 21

Matthew Lohden
Newcomer
James is right. The lack of any direct way to maintain an RCP in the building model is a serious flaw. The workarounds are tedious; such as copy/paste from 3D bottom view, or manually draw elements that have already been modeled. This creates a bunch of extra work every time something changes.

A simple thing which would help to move us down this path would be the addition of global parameters or a request function in GDL to make all the display options accessible to the programmer. This way library parts could be written to respond to the view appropriately. This wouldn't help for beams, and the library parts would need to be written to take advantage of this, but it would be a good start. Oh, and one other thing, it would need to be possible to override the current default behavior of doors and windows in the RCP view option. I know some firms that like to show door swings as grey or dashed lines in RCP, and there is also the problem with things like niches and wall penetrations that should not show up as windows in the RCP.

It seems that this small improvement could be added very easily; maybe even in an r/v-3 or 4 patch.
Matthew Lohden
Consultant, SF CA

MacPro 8core 32GB Radeon 5870
OSX 10.8 Mountain Lion, XP32, Win 7x64

NOELDESIGNS
Newcomer
You are right, but there is a fairly simple workaround that takes hardly any time at all.

Here is what I do and it is fast. If you want beams to show on the floor plan in one way, and then on the RCP in a different way, simply put the beams on their own layer, for instance Beams - Floor Plan. have a different layer that is Beams - RCP.

On the floor plan layer set, do a find and select and only choose Beams - Floor Plan. You don't have to but I usually group these. Copy them 100' (or whatever) to one side. Select the copied beams and put them on the layer Beams - RCP. Select them and change their parameters as you want them. If you prefer not to have duplicate beams on the Floor plan and the RCP, simplly ctrl+ and that will change the beams to 2d lines. Move the beams/lines on the beams-rcp layer back 100' to their original place.

This sounds like a lot of work, but it really only takes less than a minute. The same can be done for stairs as you mentioned, or any other object/group. By using layers and layer combinations and letting the software do the work, the process you describe can be easily accomplished with little additional time.

The method I described above would take considerably less time than drawing 2D lines for the various plans.

Hope this helps. Grant

__archiben
Newcomer
grant

the issue then arises whereby something gets changed . . .

in a large drawing office, with several people moving between projects, how do you keep track of what has been copied/exploded onto other layers so that this duplicate information gets changed too?

whilst it is probably a valid 'workaround', it is just that. archiCAD is intended to be a virtual building model, and therefore methods of controlling RCP information need to be (and no doubt will be) addressed.

~/archiben
b e n f r o s t
b f [a t ] p l a n b a r c h i t e c t u r e [d o t] n z
archicad | sketchup! | coffeecup

Djordje
Booster
~/archiben wrote:
archiCAD is intended to be a virtual building model, and therefore methods of controlling RCP information need to be (and no doubt will be) addressed.
Quite so.

Add to all of the above problems the inability to level dimension the BOTTOM of the slab, instead of the top. Why? Well, if you model the ceiling with the slabs (and I see no reason why not to) the level dimension shows the TOP of the slab - completely irrelevant in this case. Manual editing of the dimension text again, manual updating ... not good in a multiuser environment.
Djordje

ArchiCAD since 4.55 ... 1995

James Murray
Contributor
On workarounds...

You can also do drag a copy in place, switch the layer, explode. You can also use cutting planes and a bottom view to cut and paste from the 3D Window. All good workarounds, and needed.

Drawing, or copying, or imaging, or exploding are all relatively fast. It is doing over and over that is the problem. In addition to multiplying the time involved, it introduces forgetfulness, bad planning, poor communication, and other human errors into a process that should be automatic. This is the point of the virtual building.

Drawing over modeled elements is a time sink and an error trap, regardless of technique. Not that we have a choice, so keep those workarounds coming.
James Murray
Rill Architects • macOS • OnLand.info

Matthew Lohden
Newcomer
Noel,

Your workaround is a good one, but it only serves for the beams, and I have always had a deep resistance to duplicating model elements. I have known people to use the same approach for walls but have found this to be very problematic. There is still the problem of stairs, getting doors and windows to appear as desired, etc.

It is of course good to have the various ways to work around the problems but it is unfortunate that we have to do this to produce such commonly required drawings. Every commonly required workaround adds further support, training, and standards requirements (especially in larger firms) and more things to remember each time the design changes.

It occurs to me that it would be nice to document all the workarounds people are using to produce ceiling plans. I think I'll go put a poll in the "Working in ArchiCAD" forum.
Matthew Lohden
Consultant, SF CA

MacPro 8core 32GB Radeon 5870
OSX 10.8 Mountain Lion, XP32, Win 7x64

Matthew Lohden
Newcomer
jamesm wrote:
On workarounds...

... Drawing over modeled elements is a time sink and an error trap, regardless of technique. Not that we have a choice, so keep those workarounds coming.
Brilliantly put, James. I would just say "error factory" rather than "error trap" which sounds like a good thing.
Matthew Lohden
Consultant, SF CA

MacPro 8core 32GB Radeon 5870
OSX 10.8 Mountain Lion, XP32, Win 7x64

Geoff Briggs
Participant
The goal, of course is draw once, display as needed. This has been the thrust of countless wishlist posts by myself and others.

Roofs and slabs with associated fills is one such long standing wish.

At least as frequently requested are walls that show across stories. If this wish were granted I wonder how it would affect the current RCP discussion.
Regards,
Geoff Briggs
DeForest Architects
Seattle, USA

AC24 INT, Mac (home), Win10 (work)
Yes, you read that correctly, we are in the US but use the INT version.

Laci Neda
Newcomer
Added to wishlist:
Ceiling Plan
Walls should (optionally) display on any story they penetrate
László Néda
Architect
Business Development Manager
GRAPHISOFT SE

Aussie John
Newcomer
Any RCP view shouldn't require any extra layers over a floor plan.

One way would be to have RCP as a sub storey of the main floor plan.
You can then flip through the stories seeing just the floor plan or go up the part storey to see the RCP (or mezzanine or electrical or whatever).

Since you are using a substorey it would be easy to select an element in the floor plan ( main storey) to show in the sub storey. Combine with display options to take out door refs, hatching etc and you have a powerful option.
Cheers John
John Hyland : ARINA : www.arina.biz
User ver 4 to 12 - Jumped to v22 - so many options and settings!!!
OSX 10.15.6 [Catalina] : Archicad 22 : 15" MacBook Pro 2019
[/size]

__archiben
Newcomer
Aussie wrote:
One way would be to have RCP as a sub storey of the main floor plan.
or an upside-down plan view window . . . see mr lohden's "new working environment"

the ability to attribute fills to the bottom as well as the top of slabs/roofs/etc.. should would help this . . . ?

~/archiben
b e n f r o s t
b f [a t ] p l a n b a r c h i t e c t u r e [d o t] n z
archicad | sketchup! | coffeecup

image_engine
Newcomer
Hi All
We have implemented a method via api but should really be part of the GDL dataset. Using an identifier at the end of the MVO name eg CGA (construction general arrangement) etc, library parts interrogate the name and display accordingly. Sure the floor plan option can access a boolean but we have ie a zone that needs its label to be in different positions depending on the viewset/mvo. I set aside a dynamic array of hotspots so, depending on which viewset is chosen (and mvo name), it selects the correct position. This extends to display of zone info, rcp display of object s etc. Even linetype and fills can be programmed this way so that fills become scale sensitive in such a way that not only size but also complexities are scale sensitive. So via the floor plan option one creates a master gdl that defines the different required attributes and presto, dynamically reactive elements and objects that not only fulfill RCP but also any other required model based snapshots. Come on GS, please put these features at a standard user level; the more we move into BIM, the more the need for flexible user controlled display of the info. Please check my other posts ie user definable floor plan options
Cheers
Mark

greenfin beta
Newcomer
this topic was started in 2004. i wonder if something has been done about archicad's lack of RCP view. i use AC 11 & 12 and neither has this functionality or at least it eludes me. since revit has it i took it for granted that archicad has it, too. i only just noticed now that it doesn't. could someone tell me the least runabout way to do RCP in archicad?
AC11 AC12 Revit 9 WinXP 2.0GB 1.6GHz IMac

kliment
Newcomer
Can I vote five times? Essential, of course!
I spent the last two months redrawing windows and everything else. It was "fun"!
We need a new Display Options mode for RCP and clewver elements which can look "up"!
Kliment Ivanov
http://www.klimentivanov.com
AC /since 4.55/; AutoCAD; Max; SketchUp; VRay; ArtL; Photoshop; Illustrator; InDesign; CorelDraw
Win 7 Ultimate 64

Aussie John
Newcomer
My worst gripe is if you use the roof tool to create a raked ceiling the top and bottom lines are in the wrong Place!!! This is because the 2d view of a roof is from the top and doesn't take into account the edge detail. If the roof/ceiling has any thickness then the 2d view of a ceiling element is just plain in the wrong position.

So if we dont get full RCP mode them at least give us underside view of roofs.
Cheers John
John Hyland : ARINA : www.arina.biz
User ver 4 to 12 - Jumped to v22 - so many options and settings!!!
OSX 10.15.6 [Catalina] : Archicad 22 : 15" MacBook Pro 2019
[/size]

jfanjoy
Newcomer
Aussie wrote:
So if we dont get full RCP mode them at least give us underside view of roofs.
I started with ArchiCAD a few weeks ago, and just discovered (to my disappointment) that AC doesn't do "real" RC plans. It seems that it just manages layers on and off, rather than looking upward from the cutting plane. That is a big opportunity lost in BIM! If i don't want my toilet to show up on the RC plan, i have to change it's layer? I could do that in AutoCAD LT.

Sorry for adding this so late in the thread, but I really think this should be a high priority item for GS to figure out.
James M. Fanjoy, Architect
Oregon, USA
ArchiCAD r15 + MacBook Pro + MacOSX 10.7.2

image_engine
Newcomer
If i don't want my toilet to show up on the RC plan
Objects are subject to model view options; stored with rcp requirement

Mvo.jpg

Erich
Newcomer
image_engine wrote:
Objects are subject to model view options; stored with rcp requirement
This is true provided that the objects are programed to respond to this option. Not all are (actually, very few are as of AC 12).
Erich

AC 19 6006 & AC 20
Mac OS 10.11.5
15" Retina MacBook Pro 2.6
27" iMac Retina 5K

s2art
Newcomer
jfanjoy wrote:
Aussie wrote:
So if we dont get full RCP mode them at least give us underside view of roofs.
I started with ArchiCAD a few weeks ago, and just discovered (to my disappointment) that AC doesn't do "real" RC plans. It seems that it just manages layers on and off, rather than looking upward from the cutting plane. That is a big opportunity lost in BIM! If i don't want my toilet to show up on the RC plan, i have to change it's layer? I could do that in AutoCAD LT.

Sorry for adding this so late in the thread, but I really think this should be a high priority item for GS to figure out.
There are many types of plan where I don't want to show the toilets - Floor framing, roof framing, roof plans for example. What's the big deal about having them (and other associated sanitary fittings) on a specific layer?

And I don't know what I've been producing for the last 7 years, but I call them Reflected Ceiling Plans.
S t u a r t . R o s e
PAUA Architects
AC22 6025 NZE
iMac Retina 27inch
3GHz Intel Core i5, 32GB 2667 MHz DDR4

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