Wishes
Post your wishes about Graphisoft products: Archicad, BIMx, BIMcloud, and DDScad.

The new working environment, was Open two stories ...

Anonymous
Not applicable
I would like to be able to open multiple plan view windows, but it would almost certainly involve a major overhaul of the way the program works. ArchiCAD (despite inventing the BIM concept) is plan centered for historical reasons (it allowed the program to run on the much slower machines of twenty years ago). Prior to version 5.1 the plan view was the only way to edit the model with 3D and section views as strictly 2D output.

To allow multiple plan views would (IMHO) require the major change of going from the historically plan centered to a model centered approach. The primary interface to the project would become the 3D window and everything else would behave as specialized views of the model.

I don't mean by this to imply that I object in any way to the idea of multiple plan views. In fact it is part of my ultimate fantasy of how ArchiCAD should operate.

What I am imagining (perhaps in ArchiCAD 11?) is:

- The 3D window is the primary and central interface for developing and navigating through the model.

- 3D navigation and editing with the ease of SketchUp and the power and accuracy of ArchiCAD.

- Instant 3D cut-away views of any plan, section or detail in the main model window. This means that the model is cut as defined in the particular view but is still be free to move and edit normally in 3D.

- The option to ghost the 2D elements in the above cut-aways. (I'm not sure how useful this would be, but it sure would look cool.)

- View types: Plan (floor & ceiling), Section & Elevation, Interior Elevation (that knows what room it's in, and not a kludgy add-on), Details, and 3D Views. (This is really just the current types with the addition of Plan views)

- 3D views would be separate windows for axon or perspective views with the ability to annotate in the model or the view plane (ie. dimensions oriented to the model in an isometric projection and notes and titles oriented to the page).

- Plan views: In addition to the variable cut height also share the section tool's ability to offset so that split levels or other conditions could be easily and accurately drawn. Setting the plan's cut height also eliminates the annoying split walls we have to use to model transom windows etc.

- Ceiling Plans: Like the floor plan views only looking up. I probably don't have to tell anyone all the workarounds this eliminates. Imagine, easy ceiling plans that look exactly the way you want them to.

- Plan boundaries: The plans are (optionally?) bounded allowing the tool to be used for enlarged plans which are still live model views. (This is a major limitation of the detail tool for this purpose.)

- Sections: The section tool is visible and editable in the main model window (as is the plan tool; perhaps only when the view is activated in the 3D window). The section tool has the ability to offset both vertically and horizontally allowing different section locations through each floor (and ending up at the ridge if desired).

- Details: These are still 2D drawings (derived from the model) as far as I am concerned. I find that if I want to correct the model to make the detail work there is much more to it than just the limited area of the detail.

- General: All views have the option to display as line drawings, shaded views, or rendered by any available engines including any combination of these with or without shadows as appropriate (and feasible). Imagine a site plan with notes and dimensions rendered with shadows in a watercolor style for the Planning Board hearing.

What do you think folks?

Would you buy this upgrade?

PS: I know this probably belongs in the wish list. I got a bit carried away beyond multiple story windows or live details.
Perhaps this whole topic should move to the wish list. (What do you think Djordje?)
31 REPLIES 31
Anonymous
Not applicable
Geoff,

Thank you for the compliment.

Your commentary and suggestions have been very helpful for refining the ideas. The image you painted of multiple open windows with different layer and diplay settings has stuck in my head so much that I wish I were using this proposed ArchiCAD 11 right now (and I was enjoying 8.1 so much ).

One issue occured to me with the new plan windows. Overlaying different drawings for coordination would need to be worked out. This could probably be handled by an ability to ghost one plan in another.

I have also been thinking about the performance and implementation issues. After my last post the whole picture became more clear and the changes seem less dramatic than I originally thought. The main difference from the present is the addition of the new plan view window. The story views would remain for overall viewing and editing of the model. They would also retain the up/down/go to story navigation. The plan views are where the drawings would be annotated.

In this scenario it seems the demands on the hardware would be about the same as now. It just adds some new views to the navigator. The function and performance of the 3D & story windows would certainly evolve and improve as time passes and brings newer faster machines. The one thing that we would really need is the ability to turn off the auto rebuild in live model views. I would like this right now for the section windows, but it is much more important in the plan views since there is so much more work in them.

I think what I like most about what I am proposing is the symmetry and clarity of it. Design is done mostly in the story and 3D windows without being encumbered by annotations and the layers needed to manage them. Drawings are all created, developed and annotated in views made to suit the particular needs of each type of drawing.

I would appreciate any further thoughts or comments anyone might have as I am enjoying this topic very much.
aahatimo
Newcomer
wow, great discussion you guys!
sign me up.
tim hanagan
aaha! design studio durango, co
27" retina 5k iMac 4ghz i7 os 10.13.6 m395x 4 mb, 32gb ram, 512 gb ssd ac 22 current
15" retina mbp 2.6ghz 1mb 16gb ac 22 current[/size]
Djordje
Ace
Matthew wrote:
One issue occured to me with the new plan windows. Overlaying different drawings for coordination would need to be worked out. This could probably be handled by an ability to ghost one plan in another.

I have also been thinking about the performance and implementation issues. After my last post the whole picture became more clear and the changes seem less dramatic than I originally thought. The main difference from the present is the addition of the new plan view window. The story views would remain for overall viewing and editing of the model. They would also retain the up/down/go to story navigation. The plan views are where the drawings would be annotated.
Hmmm ...

The ghosting is already there; maybe I am old fashioned, but even now I find the workspace rather cluttered, and cannot really keep more than one WORKING window open at one time - plasma wall mounted 50" monitors with gigapixel resolutions will probably sort that one out.

If I understand Matthew correctly, the plan windows should be more or less like the S/E is now - for the production of con docs, more than the work itself. Or, it CAN be as it is now, BUT we can open any, all or none stories as we do with S/Es now, and the center of the universe is the 3D window.

I do think this will put quite a strain on the hardware; even more strain on the people who are still edicated to think in planes and do the drawings, not the buildings, myself included.

Regardless, I am for it - you know that I am the 3D window person - and to that effect, I would ask to:

- have the intersections of different elements snappable in the 3D window
- have the ability to create at least interesection hotspots if not full reference directions in the 3D window
- have the hidden line in OpenGL
- have the user defined working plane in the 3D window (yes, EXACTLY like the UCS in AutoCAD); we already have the Look To - so the data are there
- have the full hatched section of the elements in the 3D window (see my wish at http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=756)
- have the 2D elements in 3D window

In fact, what Matthew's wish, and the subsequent discussion are all about, is to (please don't kill me!) make ArchiCAD fully 3D instead of 2.75 D. Until we have to have the drafting workarounds and the unlinking, we cannot say that we have full 3D. Now the machine power is there, even on the Macs there is no excuse for not providing this.
Djordje



ArchiCAD since 4.55 ... 1995
HP Omen
Geoff Briggs
Mentor
Having a separate window for each plan drawing, like S/E is now, would certainly simplify the layer structure. If each retained it's individual view settings and the rebuild issue was addressed (manual for now, instant in the future) then these multiple windows could be quickly accessed through the navigator or stacked and accessed with Exposé (Mac plug).

But this brings up a few new issues:

One place the current plan/story/layer scheme excels over multiple windows is in the re-use of annotation and 2D objects. Dimension strings, notations and 2D time savers can be shown on floor plans, framing plans and RCPs without duplication using simple layer management. (I'm constantly copying things between S/E windows. Associative dimensions would probably not survive the journey.) If anything I've longed for these object types to gain the option to display on multiple stories to ease the placement of common dimensions and general notes. One possible solution is the transformation of everything into a 3D object type. Anyone who hasn't done so should check out BOA for an example of this and some other innovative thinking: http://www.boa-research.com.

My other thoughts go more to philosophy and workflow . If plan documents now reside in their own windows, why retain the story views as they currently exist? Why have stories at all? Why not just define where along the z axis each of the plan windows is cut, or do it graphically like we do now with sections? (This is the way BOA works, all plans are sections of the model.)

So here's my sci-fi vision of the working environment of this mythic future ArchiCAD. Multiple working windows, like the 3D OpenGL but showing all composites, hatching, etc. and having all the snap points and dimensional precision we're used to in plan. I imagine at least 3 open simultaneously, for example plan, section, axon/perspective. Or maybe the situation calls for two plans cut at different heights and an elevation. Thus I wouldn't confine these working windows to particular roles but let each be a general purpose 2D/3D view with streamlined navigation tools and savable views. Cutaway planes could be dragged, as in SketchUp, or set numerically, and could be shown ghosted in the other windows for reference. Cutaways would also have an adjustable depth to limit what is available in ghost or x-ray mode.

And since I'm shooting the moon here, none of this would come at the expense of the new plan or S/E windows which would remain live linked and editable with all dimensions associative, etc.
Regards,
Geoff Briggs
I & I Design, Seattle, USA
AC7-27, M1 Mac, OS 14.x
Laci Neda
Graphisoft Alumni
Graphisoft Alumni
Great discussions!
Added to wishlist, wishes:
-Multiple Projects/Multiple views
-Better editing in the 3D window
-Hidden line view in 3D OpenGL view
-2D elements in the 3D window
-User defined working planes in the 3D window
-Composite structures in the 3D window
László Néda
Architect
Business Development Manager
GRAPHISOFT SE
Anonymous
Not applicable
Well folks, the holidays are over and I can't resist getting back to this thread. So to ease into it I'll respond to Geoff's thoughtful last post.
Geoff wrote:
Having a separate window for each plan drawing, like S/E is now, would certainly simplify the layer structure. If each retained it's individual view settings and the rebuild issue was addressed (manual for now, instant in the future) then these multiple windows could be quickly accessed through the navigator or stacked and accessed with Exposé (Mac plug).
The plan view windows could also address one of my (and others) long standing wishes: opaque fills in roofs and slabs. The story view (i.e. the current plan window - which I think should remain, at least to start) can retain the transparency for ease of editing, while the new plan view would use opaque fills like the 3D and section views do now. This way floor patterns can be shown without having to apply a fill over the slab, roof plans can be live model views (or renewable drawings) instead of snapshots from the 3D top view (as I do them now), and attic plans can show the roof coverage below the cut height.

This does require the manual rebuild option (for now) of course since the projected fills are the slowest part of the program in my experience. (This would be my first request for multiprocessor support; calculate the fills on the other processor if available, or if this is too complicated, at least have different views calculated separately so that batch rebuilds can be sped up.)

Local view settings (as opposed to the present global setting) is an interesting idea. But now that I think of it this is already available (sort of) by using view sets instead of the project map in navigator. Nevertheless, it seems that the local settings would be better. Since each view is generally just one drawing it would be unusual to need to change the scale or layer combination (I often change view options between "Draft" & "Print"). It would be nice to switch between windows and always have the view you want or even be able to look at a floor plan and site plan side by side.
But this brings up a few new issues:

One place the current plan/story/layer scheme excels over multiple windows is in the re-use of annotation and 2D objects. Dimension strings, notations and 2D time savers can be shown on floor plans, framing plans and RCPs without duplication using simple layer management. (I'm constantly copying things between S/E windows. Associative dimensions would probably not survive the journey.) If anything I've longed for these object types to gain the option to display on multiple stories to ease the placement of common dimensions and general notes. One possible solution is the transformation of everything into a 3D object type. Anyone who hasn't done so should check out BOA for an example of this and some other innovative thinking: http://www.boa-research.com.
Reuse of annotations is nice. I have a drawing title part that I place on the main floor and show on all stories so that the plans all align from one sheet to the next and are numbered & titled automatically according to the type of plan and story name. For over-all dimensions I have sometimes used dimension string library parts which can then show on all stories. These feel like workarounds though and I think things could easily be improved with the plan view idea. Overall dimensions could be put in the story view on a dimensions layer, which could then be turned on or off in each plan view as appropriate. The same thing could work for common symbols like section markers etc. Another way might be to reference elements from a base plan or cross reference layers between drawings. These or other approaches could easily get complicated and would have to very carefully thought out since the goal is to make the work easier.

I'm not so sure about making everything 3D. I'll have to check out the BOA site you mention.
My other thoughts go more to philosophy and workflow . If plan documents now reside in their own windows, why retain the story views as they currently exist? Why have stories at all? Why not just define where along the z axis each of the plan windows is cut, or do it graphically like we do now with sections? (This is the way BOA works, all plans are sections of the model.)
I'm not sure that I would want to get rid of the story view. I do a lot of design work in plan view and I think having a standard top view with ghost stories etc. is superior to using a top down 3D view. Maybe after the methods develop I would change my mind. I could just be invested in methods I've been using since the early days of plan view only editing.
So here's my sci-fi vision of the working environment of this mythic future ArchiCAD. Multiple working windows, like the 3D OpenGL but showing all composites, hatching, etc. and having all the snap points and dimensional precision we're used to in plan. I imagine at least 3 open simultaneously, for example plan, section, axon/perspective. Or maybe the situation calls for two plans cut at different heights and an elevation. Thus I wouldn't confine these working windows to particular roles but let each be a general purpose 2D/3D view with streamlined navigation tools and savable views. Cutaway planes could be dragged, as in SketchUp, or set numerically, and could be shown ghosted in the other windows for reference. Cutaways would also have an adjustable depth to limit what is available in ghost or x-ray mode.
I agree in general with your vision but I would still retain the current single 3D and Story views as modeling/design windows that the operator can work freely in without worrying about the final output drawings. The new plan and 3D views would be defined in their own windows with the ability to refine and annotate them as finished drawings.
And since I'm shooting the moon here, none of this would come at the expense of the new plan or S/E windows which would remain live linked and editable with all dimensions associative, etc.
Of course.

I have to put the kids to bed now so I'll have to save any further thoughts for another time.
Geoff Briggs
Mentor
I'm not sure that I would want to get rid of the story view. I do a lot of design work in plan view and I think having a standard top view with ghost stories etc. is superior to using a top down 3D view. Maybe after the methods develop I would change my mind.
Matthew, I'm sure you will always have the option to design in plan and hope for all our sakes that working in other views just becomes easier. Indeed, while I do imagine the working environment of the future to be a 3D top view, I see it enhanced to provide all the features of our current story view and more.

The reason for stories as I see it is to enable multiple plan views without necessitating duplicate layers for each plan. Having multiple plan windows would accomplish the same end. Thus it makes sense to develop a working environment unencumbered by the limitations of fixed stories.

What if you could scroll down through (or across) a structure using an intelligent cutting plane. At the plane the internal (composite) structure of the cut elements would be shown. The user could define how things above (in front of) and below (behind) the plane would be displayed. Adding a distant area option, like we have now with the S/E tool, would be the equivalent of a ghost story that would move with the cutting plane.

I would like to see at least two (or three or four) of these windows available simultaneously, and I do envision them being true 3D environments so at any time the model could be rotated from the orthogonal to provide an axon or perspective view.

Views in this environment could be saved to the navigator so we'd have similar, yet more flexible functionality to the current story paradigm. Thus the working window(s) could evolve toward facilitating design and engineering while being freed from the rigidity of the 2D extractions which would now reside happily in their own windows.
Regards,
Geoff Briggs
I & I Design, Seattle, USA
AC7-27, M1 Mac, OS 14.x
Anonymous
Not applicable
Graphisoft ought to hire Matthew and begin implementation of the new working environment. Of course if they are doing it already, never mind.
Obviously, I wholeheartedly agree with this working concept.
Anonymous
Not applicable
WAY too much stuff in here (that's why I just did a semi-thorough skim-read). But, an idea...
Geoff wrote:
...Indeed, while I do imagine the working environment of the future to be a 3D top view, I see it enhanced to provide all the features of our current story view and more.

In the interest of working this out, do you think a "3D ghost" option would do the trick? So you get the benefit of a 3D top view, and the ease-of-comprehension-for-CD regular plan view also. Hope you can understand between my ramblings. But I would think this might/should be the way for the future?

Just some unorganized thoughts due to lack of time.
Anonymous
Not applicable
I would like to suggest to all who are interested re-read and comment regarding the posts from this thread for suggestions for version 10.

I would also like to have a live link and workable views in plotmaker. It would be cool to work on 2 elevations at the same time from within plotmaker. Move a door in 1 view and instantly see the changes in the other view. All from within plotmaker on the same sheet. I suppose that would that we would have to have the ArchiCad tools available to work with. This is just a quick thought as I'm working on some elevations. I'm definitely not a programmer just an architect thinking of and wishing for ways to best accomplish my work.