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hierarchial/nested layers (esp. for dwg x-refs)

__archiben
Newcomer
it would be very benefitial for the layers list to be capable of handling nested layers (ie hierarchial) particularly for the handling of x-refs:

each x-ref comes into archicad under a layer automatically assigned by archicad as the files name, and inside of that layer is nested all of the files own layers. you would be able to control complete visibility of the x-ref (hiding the master layer), or the visibility of the x-ref's own layers within the drop-down layer list that would be available as nested layers within the master layer.

i believe that it would also be benefitial if x-ref layers were locked by default and also unlockable! a person should not be able to draught at all in a layer from another file except by opening that file in its own right.

hope this makes sense!

congratulations on the forum. the ability to be able to subscribe to a daily digest as before would (i believe) ensure that all bases are covered with regard to how people wish to use the facility!

~/archiben
b e n f r o s t
b f [a t ] p l a n b a r c h i t e c t u r e [d o t] n z
archicad | sketchup! | coffeecup
10 REPLIES 10

Anonymous
Not applicable
"each x-ref comes into archicad under a layer automatically assigned by archicad as the files name, and inside of that layer is nested all of the files own layers. you would be able to control complete visibility of the x-ref (hiding the master layer), or the visibility of the x-ref's own layers within the drop-down layer list that would be available as nested layers within the master layer.

i believe that it would also be benefitial if x-ref layers were locked by default and also unlockable! a person should not be able to draught at all in a layer from another file except by opening that file in its own right"

Excellent Idea! I would like to have the ablility to manipulate the data within the reference file. I suppose you would have this ability by binding the file to your own.

__archiben
Newcomer
good point.

yes - the ability to copy formatting, etc.. (the eyedropper) needs still to be able to work, however my comment about not being able to edit the data, or even draw directly onto x-ref layers still stands i think.

at present it is impossible to edit elements that are a part of a module or x-ref, (and rightly so), unless they are 'bound' into the document.

what i am suggesting is to take this further with x-ref's and completely block the ability to draw new elements into x-ref layers from within the file that they are x-ref'd into.

this means that the only way to alter, amend, add to a consultant's file (for example) is to consciously open it in its own right and then update the file that it is x-ref'd into.

it prevents technicians from plastering new information onto x-ref layers by accident and, indeed, losing that information when you detach (or unload - can't remember) the x-ref and delete its associated layers.

(of course, if there were the ability to have this function with x-refs and layers, you could delete a whole x-refs layers completely by simply deleting the 'master' layer - safe in the knowledge that you haven't deleted any of your own work.

and taking it further: graphisoft could implement x-ref management a little better by having archicad delete these layers when you detach (or unload - again i can't remember which, but the one that gets rid of the x-ref completely) the x-ref. presumably this isn't possible at present because archicad allows you to create new information on an x-ref layer?)

just my 2p!
thanks
~/archiben
b e n f r o s t
b f [a t ] p l a n b a r c h i t e c t u r e [d o t] n z
archicad | sketchup! | coffeecup

fuzzytnth3
Booster
~/archiben wrote:
good point.

and taking it further: graphisoft could implement x-ref management a little better by having archicad delete these layers when you detach (or unload - again i can't remember which, but the one that gets rid of the x-ref completely) the x-ref. presumably this isn't possible at present because archicad allows you to create new information on an x-ref layer?)

just my 2p!
thanks
~/archiben
Archicad can do that now well it can in 7.0!

Instead of using the Hotlink module method use the Attach x-ref command in the Tools menu. Xrefs then come in the same way they do in AutoCAD but with the added benifit that when you detach the xref later all of the layers get removed from your ArchiCAD file
AC versions 3.41 to 25 (UKI Full 4013).
Using AC23 6004 UKI FULL
Mac OSX 10.15.7 (19G2021) Mac Pro-2013 32gbRam AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB graphics

KenMcN
Participant
~/archiben wrote:
it would be very benefitial for the layers list to be capable of handling nested layers (ie hierarchial)...
It would be good if we could nest the layers to group them by 'subject'. We use the cisfb system to prefix layers - "A-21 external walls" for example - and have layer "A-21 external walls-det" (for smaller scale details, not shown on GA plans), "A-21 external walls-dims" etc. If the 'minor' layers could be grouped under the major element it would make the layer list a lot shorter for general use.
V19 (fully patched), Mac OS 10.11.4, iMac 2015

__archiben
Newcomer
fuzzytnth3 wrote:
Xrefs then come in the same way they do in AutoCAD but with the added benifit that when you detach the xref later all of the layers get removed from your ArchiCAD file
ok. i have to say that i skipped archicad 7 - went from 6.5 to 8 (bit of a shocker) - but i DO use x-ref management in archicad 8. . .

afaik archicad 8 doesn't delete an x-refs layers if you choose to detach it! probably an 8.0 bug thing. i haven't tried in archicad 8.1 yet, but common sense says that if you are able to draw into an x-ref layer, x-ref management shouldn't be able to delete them either . . ? it would be a bit like allowing a team member to delete any old layer in a teamwork project with other members signed in!

please enlighten me if your version of 8 does delete the layers . . . i'll try and figure out what's up with mine.

~/archiben
b e n f r o s t
b f [a t ] p l a n b a r c h i t e c t u r e [d o t] n z
archicad | sketchup! | coffeecup

__archiben
Newcomer
KenMcN wrote:
We use the cisfb system to prefix layers - "A-21 external walls" for example - and have layer "A-21 external walls-det" (for smaller scale details, not shown on GA plans), "A-21 external walls-dims" etc. If the 'minor' layers could be grouped under the major element it would make the layer list a lot shorter for general use.
ken

we have just begun to use the CiSfb system as a framework for our layers, however with the emphasis on keeping the layer list to a minimum!!!

the principle you describe though would be just one of the many benefits, so come on everybody: vote in that poll thing at the top!!!

~/archiben
b e n f r o s t
b f [a t ] p l a n b a r c h i t e c t u r e [d o t] n z
archicad | sketchup! | coffeecup

fuzzytnth3
Booster
~/archiben wrote:

afaik archicad 8 doesn't delete an x-refs layers if you choose to detach it! probably an 8.0 bug thing. i haven't tried in archicad 8.1 yet, but common sense says that if you are able to draw into an x-ref layer, x-ref management shouldn't be able to delete them either . . ? it would be a bit like allowing a team member to delete any old layer in a teamwork project with other members signed in!

please enlighten me if your version of 8 does delete the layers . . . i'll try and figure out what's up with mine.

~/archiben
Sadly I don't have AC 8.0 but perhaps someone else will check it out and enlighten us
AC versions 3.41 to 25 (UKI Full 4013).
Using AC23 6004 UKI FULL
Mac OSX 10.15.7 (19G2021) Mac Pro-2013 32gbRam AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB graphics

Thomas Holm
Booster
Sorry for duplicating - I found out too late that this post should have been here in the first place.

The posts in this thread point to several problems. One is that the Hotlink and Xref management tools partly duplicate each other in a somewhat confusing way. They should be merged (the tools i mean) and just give you different options depending on the requirements of the linked file type (2D/3D/pln/mod/dwg etc.)

Another one is that you must treat the different options (Hotlink-AttachedXref- OverlayedXref) differently. The previous posts don't all specify the link method used when the layer/edit/detach problem arises.

To me, it sounds dangerous to be able to edit an XREF, since it might be attached to more than one file. If at all possible, it should be surrounded with all kinds of warning dialogs etc. And if edited, the original should be locked form editing by others.

Is this behavior in any way dependant on HOW the xrefs are linked?

Hotlinked plns and hotlinked module files behave differenty

Attach - is a closer Xref link to a 2D dwg/dxf file. All nested XREFs come in too, as well as layers, while

Overlay - is a more distant link to a truly external file. With this link, in my view you should not be able to edit the XREF unless you open it ffor editing first. And I also think this kind of link should not bring in the layers of the external file, and when detached, no trace of it should be left.

An issue here may be the fact that Archicad caches a copy of the hotlink/XREF in the master file, regardless of link method. If the programmers don't keep them protected, it's easy to start editing the cached copy. What happens then?

How does Archicad8.1's XREF handling differ from Autocad? (and I only want release version info).

And finally: I think external reference file management is one of the few areas in which Microstation (for 10 years and still) excels compared to Archicad, Autocad and all others. I think Graphisoft should ttake a good look at it. (I've sent this wishh tto the wishlist several times, i think).

Thomas
AC4.1-AC24SWE-25INT; OSX11.5; MP5,1+MBP16,1

Gyuri Nyitrai
Newcomer
Added to ArchiCAD Wishlist.

owen
Newcomer
Gyuri wrote:
(2003) Added to ArchiCAD Wishlist.
long wishlist .. AC13 maybe?
cheers,

Owen Sharp

Design Technology Manager
fjmt | francis-jones morehen thorp

iMac 27" i7 2.93Ghz | 32GB RAM | OS 10.10 | Since AC5

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