Element Visibility Control - Page 2

thesleepofreason · ‎2021-10-13

When modeling I often feel hamstrung by a lack of control over the visibility of elements in model space which can be traced to the fact that its tied to layers.

Ignoring any discussion about layers raison d'être in todays object oriented applications I just note that its strange to rely on a coarse and rigid structure as layers for visibility when we have access to a much finer and flexible selection functionality.

At the same time there are functionalities already in place that undermines the hegemony of layers regarding visibility.

We can hide elements in 3D by type.
We can hide elements in 3D by selection.
We can hide elements in both 2D and 3D by renovation filters.
We can as of AC27 hide elements in both 2D and 3D by design options. /edit240521

I would like to see a effort to consolidate all this control functionality in to one tool and base it on the same logic as the Find & Select tool.

My rather spontaneous concept idea for intuitive visibility control is a toggle between 'Show All' and 'Hide All' with an exception/inversion list based on Criterion Sets or Criterion Set Combinations.

Show All

Hide All

-----------------------------

Exception/Inversion

Criteria Set 1

Criteria Set 2

Criteria Set ...

Another functionality that would be useful is the ability to set hidden elements as reference - locking and fading/wireframing/x-raying them.

runxel · ‎2021-11-22

Big +1 for this.

Layers are so 1980. (Keep them for backward compatibility, sure)

If we could show/hide based on classification and properties... that would be amazing.

gdford · ‎2021-11-22

From a management standpoint I am not sure I see a difference other than the deeper we nest the controls the more difficult it is to remember what we did.

thesleepofreason · ‎2021-11-22

Indeed and I actually think that GS agree that the time has come for layers to give up their prominence. Why would they otherwise keep introducing undermining visibility functionality?

So the question is what are they are going to do about the bifurcation between 2D/3D and when are they going to consolidate it all to one tool that gives easy and clear control over whats shown/hidden in specific views?

thesleepofreason · ‎2021-12-25

So apparently I've missed some other already implemented functionality that could be used to enhance element visibility control - Model Compare. It's actually ridiculous how much potential there is just sitting around. Without introducing any fundamentally new functions AC could become so much more efficient and intuitive when it comes to how we control element visibility.

So Model Compare gives the ability to:

Show elements based on criteria sets which are fine grained.
Selectable list of every element shown in the view.
Control opacity of the shown elements
Control how the degree to which the "hidden" elements are shown.

jl_lt · ‎2022-03-03

Hi all. Personally, the idea of hiding individual objects boggles my mind and was one of the reasons i didnt choose revit (ohh yeah, and its horrible clumsiness). In our case, if something is shown that shouldnt, its because its in the wrong layer. We´d rather create a new layer and layer combo than doing individually edited views, save for very ad hoc situations, most of which are just for fancy isometrics and have no impact in the overall documentation. But i understand why people asks for this and would be a welcome adition to the layer system.

thesleepofreason · ‎2022-03-05

The ability to hide individual objects is not the main objective of a criteria based approach - it's just a windfall. A layer approach entails either limitations on views or ad-hoc layer - it is doomed in given development of BIM/CAD applications.

jl_lt · ‎2023-03-05

Maybe is the size of the projects we handle (small), but so far we literally havent encountered a single situation that cannot be easily solved with layer combinations, either on plan, section, elevation, 3d or isometric, you name it.

Your suggestion would certainly be usefull for adhoc situations, but keeping a global visibility control with layers and combos (or clasification system as @DGSketcher suggests) would be a must for us, if change is ever introduced.

What situations do you encounter that would be better solved with this kind of fine control on the element level that cannot be solved with layers and combos?

DGSketcher · ‎2023-03-05

Thanks for reigniting this subject. The use of layers works quite well for most presentation, BUT we are moving towards increasingly complex embedded data & modelling. Layering is approaching its limit on more complex projects; we need to be able to strip out or add sub elements to provide appropriate views and it needs to be manageable with descriptive filters to isolate the required elements. A simple marquee and layer solution is too blunt if for example you just want to see the precast concrete floor components over 9 metre long on the 5th storey or you just want to focus on the core wall elements within Phase 3 of the development. Yes these can be achieved with Layers, but they don't enable finer visibility control or the simplicity of changing the view content.

There is a need for a centralised element filtering system that is simple to use without, as @thesleepofreason pointed out in his OP, having display options scattered throughout the interface. For me I would like to see this built off the Graphic Override interface to avoid tool duplication, but I can also see that applying saved settings from Find & Select to Views would be equally powerful and possibly allow greater flexibility in the final drawing presentation.

jl_lt · ‎2023-03-06

Hi! I understand all these points, and again, we do small scale stuff, so maybe im missing something, but we have exactly a situation like the one you describe which we solve it with appropiate layers for structural elements and its corrresponding combos. Not a single element needs to be selected or hidden; Graphic overrides showing everything in different colors is the icing on the cake.

So, if the projects are getting more complex (which is a topic for another day, as we try to go in the oposite direction), wouldnt it actually be easier to control everything in groups of interconnected elements (layers, clasification, etc, You name it) ? Instead of individually selecting objects or through some filtering option which could potentially become a mess, quickly. (Theoretically each element could have its own layer, and each view its own layer combination)

Again, im not saying im against this improvement, but i believe high level visibility control needs to be preserved.

Having said that, if they ever do anything about this, i definetely agree with your idea of this fine tuning ocurring in the view map level. This way it could ocur WITHIN the context of a layer and combo system instead of replacing it, and actually within current archicad workflow and mechanics.

That is, You work normally and you set everything up with apropiate layers and combos, and if you wanted even more control within that view, then You fine tune it with an interfase similar to what You guys describe (find and select + graphic override) in the the view map controls of an specific view or cloned folders, exactly as you would do with scale or pen set. In other words, you OVERRIDE the combo, but you always know what you did (using proper folder names of course), and you can always revert back to the original combo if you mess everything up.

thesleepofreason · ‎2023-03-06

@jl_lt wrote:

Again, im not saying im against this improvement, but i believe high level visibility control needs to be preserved.

And it is as layers (or classification or functional grouping, or any other high-level property) could be used in a criteria expression. So it really makes no sense to do as you suggest in the last paragraph - keep the current solution but add a visibility override. There would be no loss of functionality for layer based workflows.

You don't seem to fully understand the justification for the wish. It is not a question about it being impossible to set things up with layers but rather that the solution is getting awfully outdated with respect to how we structure and interact with models. Ultimately we want to be able to just prompt what should be visible in a view based on objects intrinsic properties - definitely not assign ad hoc visibility properties to objects. The already implemented criteria functionality gives a framework for this and making it, instead of a single property, a central part of visibility control would really be a step in the right direction.