Element Visibility Control - Page 3

thesleepofreason · ‎2021-10-13

When modeling I often feel hamstrung by a lack of control over the visibility of elements in model space which can be traced to the fact that its tied to layers.

Ignoring any discussion about layers raison d'être in todays object oriented applications I just note that its strange to rely on a coarse and rigid structure as layers for visibility when we have access to a much finer and flexible selection functionality.

At the same time there are functionalities already in place that undermines the hegemony of layers regarding visibility.

We can hide elements in 3D by type.
We can hide elements in 3D by selection.
We can hide elements in both 2D and 3D by renovation filters.
We can as of AC27 hide elements in both 2D and 3D by design options. /edit240521

I would like to see a effort to consolidate all this control functionality in to one tool and base it on the same logic as the Find & Select tool.

My rather spontaneous concept idea for intuitive visibility control is a toggle between 'Show All' and 'Hide All' with an exception/inversion list based on Criterion Sets or Criterion Set Combinations.

Show All

Hide All

-----------------------------

Exception/Inversion

Criteria Set 1

Criteria Set 2

Criteria Set ...

Another functionality that would be useful is the ability to set hidden elements as reference - locking and fading/wireframing/x-raying them.

thesleepofreason · ‎2023-03-06

@DGSketcher wrote:

For me I would like to see this built off the Graphic Override interface to avoid tool duplication, but I can also see that applying saved settings from Find & Select to Views would be equally powerful and possibly allow greater flexibility in the final drawing presentation.

I think a first step, and something to be done regardless of changes to visibility control, should be to implement a dedicated criteria expression editor and make saved expressions globally available. It should be quick and easy to write expressions which then could be applied across the application whether it is for F&S, GO, Schedules, model compare or visibility control.

DGSketcher · ‎2023-03-06

I doubt Layers will disappear any time soon, for two reasons... 1. New users from 2D land can relate to them and 2. GS needs to maintain it's data structure for Legacy projects.

The important bit is enabling an intelligent & flexible way to build on the layer display system that will allow you to to identify & isolate elements for viewing without getting caught up with creating a layer for every type of element you might want to Show or Hide. Some examples may be to display by consultant e.g. MEP, building trade, supplier, component type, alternate designs, phased development. This kind of approach is needed not only for presentation but also modelling and editing. It may not seem like a big thing, but it could have as much impact as the addition of the search tools has had on drawing navigation.

runxel · ‎2023-03-06

Funnily enough they kinda started to implement this in the model comparison view, where you can show things based on properties.

And nobody wants to take away a high level approach. But we really need to have the finer control as well. Layers are just so impractical. While technically probably most could be solved with it, you just can't from the point of usability.

The fun part is that by fulfilling this wish not only would this catapult Archicad to the forefront of BIM again, but it would also solve other things, that weren't possible, like 3D-worksheets. They could now rest with the all the other elements, just excluded by properties. Would be so powerful!

jan_filipec · ‎2023-03-06

That's why I love open source, the plugin based on blender simply does this, because it makes sense.

And you can still keep using your layers anyway, in ifc for example you also have ifcpresentation layer assignment, the only difference is it's just one of a thousand parameters you can use for visibility control and doesn't hold such a special place as in archicad.

thesleepofreason · ‎2023-03-06

Yes and there you also get control of how the selection and its inverse is displayed (x-ray/wire) and a interactive list of elements in the view! But you seem to have another definition of fun - seeing GS fumbling around trying to reinvent AC instead of just taking natural small steps is a pain 😉

thesleepofreason · ‎2023-03-06

Yes, open source does a good job replacing the drive for innovation that earlier was provided by a well functioning market. Alternatively GS could just start actually listening to their current users instead of chasing after new ones and tying down old ones with their empty marketing and promises of a brighter future.

jl_lt · ‎2023-03-06

Hi! thats right, i don't understand why i would want to complicate things even more. That is why I ask: in what situations that you have encountered would the workflow you describe be more efficient, or What documentation problems can be solved with this solution? So far, everything ive read here can be done either with layer combos, Graphic overrides or both. Take into account that my resistance of controlling the visibility of individual objects comes from my limited experience with Revit, which i found it to be a complete disaster.

or could it be that you are talking about a kind of an evolution of the Layer combination concept which would use the criteria based expressions you mention so you can select down even further, down to the finishes level for example? That is, you still handle everything globally but with an aditional level of control beyond the layer level, being this aditional level of control optional for the ones who need it.

thesleepofreason · ‎2023-03-08

I'm not sure why you got stuck on the ability to control individual objects - especially as I explicitly replied that it is just a windfall and not the main objective. Yes when needed it would be easy to just hide or show an individual object using it's GUID as a criteria but most of the control would be done with higher-level criteria such as classification, systems, stories, material, phases, alternatives, or even layers - it's the best of both worlds.

But you seem to have gotten a better understanding of the wish now given your last paragraph. Although I would not call it an evolution of the layer combination concept but rather an extension of the already implemented criteria concept which has been deemed necessary for GOs, F&S, Schedules and Model Compare - why should visibility be any different?

jl_lt · ‎2023-03-11

Ive seen the horrors of controling visibility in revit, so i just wanted to make sure this wasnt the objective of the wish, as i thought it was implied somewhere in the thread.

Yeah, i think i get it now. if thats it , im in!. Now lets just wait 10 years for it to be implemented

stefan · ‎2023-06-07

Hiding based on criteria is different from "hiding a selection" (which is uncontrollable). I personally feel the Graphic Override provides the whole toolset, but maybe having a filter/hide thing alongside it is more flexible in the end.

Layers don't suffice. You can't hide doors using a layer. You can't show only the walls that have a fire rating of 60 minutes. You can mimic this with 'almost invisible' graphic override, but this is not efficient and does not help to define a filtered view you can use for e.g. IFC export.