Grouping Icons

[Scott Bulmer]

Would prefer the grouping icons in the toolbar to visually match those in the control box, which show the condition more accurately (IMO).

[__archiben]

i've voted 'essential' for this reasons that go beyond what you are talking about:

i believe that graphisoft are hoping that with tracker/guide line functions we can drop the co-ordinates and control palettes. there is still much work to be done to get them up to a professional standard in my opinion, and a part of this involves contextually aware icons in the toolbar.

the grouping toolbar button is just one of these functions that requires this. the problem as i see it is that the button is only ever on or off: not grouped or ungrouped. therefore the icon displays only as 'suspend groups' . . . but is the depressed button suspend groups on, or is it suspend groups off? (the confusion is further added to by the name of the command - it is like always trying to work out if a double negative is going to make a positive or not! )

the icon itself needs to change to reflect the state of the command. as it does now in the toolbox. it may be possible for graphisoft to come up with a more generic icon and that we learn to recognise the state of the button. BUT: this is only ok when the command has two states. when dealing with, for example, 'gravity' - how do we know just what we are gravitating to? mesh? slab? roof? we don't . . . because the limitation of the toolbar is such that it can only show one icon.

~/archiben

[Geoff Briggs]

I agree wholeheartedly. I have not banished the old palettes because they work better than their "replacements". My only regret is the space wasted by the OK and Cancel buttons.

[James B]

I agree that this icon is confusing. Rather than recognising which state the icon is in, it's more of a case of if my group is not suspended then I need to press the button to make it suspended.

This begs the question, should you suspend just one group that your working on, or suspend groups globally? Like Adobe Illustrator introduced into CS2 I think it was, where double clicking a group, opens that group in place - effectively suspending the group. Whilst I don't think this implemention would necessarily work in AC, would a contextually aware suspend button in the pet palette be useful?

Therefore, if I have selected a group, suspend appears in the pet palette. If I select an element that is in a suspended group, un-suspend appears in the pet palette. If I select an element that is not attached to a group, then there is no suspend button in its pet palette. This I guess follows on from what Ben was saying about buttons being more aware.

[Anonymous]

I find this an interesting topic, because I have a love-hate relationship with grouping.

I use it chiefly to create blocks of components (like on-the-fly library parts), but note that my colleagues tend to group wider repetitive elements (e.g. repeating flat plans in a development) where I would tend to use a module. This means that, before you can make any changes to the drawing, you really have to suspend grouping.

I hated the old paired icon, which needed 2 clicks to achieve what is essentially a 'toggle' action. But easily the best way to get over the icon problem is to set up a shortcut key!

My use of the current button goes something like this:
I try to edit a group. Message says 'Cannot change an item of a group: suspend groups.'
I click on the icon, and edit the group.
Now I should un-suspend groups, but usually forget to do this. After all, I may be just about to edit another group.

This means I frequently make the error of copying a group with 'suspend groups' ON, with the result that my copy is no longer grouped. Worse, I copy a whole part of a drawing with grouping suspended, and end up with no groups in my copy.

Also if a group contains other groups (nested groups), then suspending groups means that you can edit the outer group, but the inner grouped elements fall apart also.

So I guess I'm really saying it would be great if you could suspend grouping for the selected group only, with grouping resuming automatically when you deselect the grouped item.

[Link]

Keith - what version of ArchiCAD are you using?

If you right click on your control box and choose 'Extended Control Box', it may make it easier for you when using Alt+G to suspend/unsuspend groups.

I can see that grouping options for specific groups may be easier, but imagine how potentially confusing it is too. How would we know at what level we were suspended to? 1 nested level or 10?

Have you investigated Selections? They may be of more use to you? They're under the Window>Palettes menu. This will alllow you to store and recall selections of elements.

Cheers,
Link.

[Anonymous]

Link -
I'm using release 10. (I'm one of the guilty parties whom Djorde would berate for not using a proper 'signature'.)
I find the extended control box not worth the extra space it takes up on the screen, & frankly prefer the single 'toggle' button for grouping/ungrouping.
Thanks for your advice on using 'Selections'. Will definitely give this a try.

[Andy Thomson]

Keith wrote:
So I guess I'm really saying it would be great if you could suspend grouping for the selected group only, with grouping resuming automatically when you deselect the grouped item.

Yup. That would be awesome. Like double-clicking in SU.