!Restored: CALCULATION: What do you want to do, what info you need???

[Laszlo Nagy]

Hi Everyone,

I am currently looking into ways to make some modifications to the Calculation-related portions of the ArchiCAD Documentation so as to improve it. I would like to ask for your help. I'd like to get a firm reality on how ArchiCAD Users relate to this part of the program.
My question to you all is:
- Tell me things you want to do with the Calculate menu
- Tell me what kind of quantity take-offs, schedules, Bills of materials etc. you want to create and what pieces of information you want to appear on these.
- Tell me what kind of Zone Lists do you usually produce. How do you do them currently and what would be needed for you in order to be able to do them automatically using the Calculate menu's features?
- Tell me what difficulties you encountered in trying to accomplish these tasks
- Tell me what parts of the Calculation portion of ArchiCAD seems most mystical and hard-to-understand to you.
- Tell me how much do use utilize AC's built-in graphic templates, do you find them useful or would you need different ones. Can you create your own using data provided in AC Help?

Thanks in advance

[David Shorter]

give me an actual example as I don't really understand your point
I mean a simple file and what you want to achieve

[Anonymous]

Dont need a file.
SImple things.
you have ONE WALL.
Nothing else.
You want to cover with tiles.
Tiles are 20cmx30cm.
To find the estimate of how much tiles you need to order
you have to first calculate the number of tiles packed in a 1square meter surface, put it in the database, and then just create a property script that has the glues or other material used AND the tiles you just made.
What the program will do? Just multiply the number you previously calculated
for 1 s.m and multiply that with the surface of the wall. Great deal.
Saving one multiplication when the real time is spend in calculating the number of tiles. What's more the number of tiles will be totally inaccurate.
Just do it with pen and pencil.

You dont have to bring in estimation of cost different manufuctures of tiles and a database with prices. Forget it. Just a nightmare.
Its simpler to extract the wall info to an excel sheet where you will also have a database o manufacturers and prices and do the job there.
The problem still is when things change you have to go all over again.

Hope the example is simple

[Rick Thompson]

I basically share David's thoughts. Property objects work great, and then linking them to what you need. It is such a waste of time to then have to export all your list into Excel in order to get an output that usable. If you change something in your model, then you have to re-export that list and fix the spreadsheet. In my case I work with hundreds of PLN files over and over again, so updating is a royal pain, as I constantly need to do. We need built in formatting abilities similar to a database such as Filemaker, where you can drag and drop fields, make calculations, add pictures, group, etc... then create different "views" of those same tables as needed (as in Filemaker). This needs to have the ability to set tabbed pages as in an Excel spreadsheet. This would allow one to make book takeoffs with sections and print them, print to pdf, or save for plotmaker.

[Anonymous]

Rick wrote:
I basically share David's thoughts. Property objects work great, and then linking them to what you need. It is such a waste of time to then have to export all your list into Excel in order to get an output that usable. If you change something in your model, then you have to re-export that list and fix the spreadsheet.

Propably i was not understood.
If you read carefully, I am not saying that i like exporting to an Excel
BUT what that AC does not really do material calculations (PLEASE read the TILES example i said).
Using an Excel export help in COST estimating.
You create a database of materials , manufacturers and prices.
THen like excel property scripits you assign to each element materials.
What you gain is the ability to cost estimate. And easily change costs when customers decide to change materials or change brand labels.

I WISH i could do it INSIDE AC.
Of course a wysiwyg editor is needed to produce a good schedule .
I dont argue at all with that.
I argued with EVERYTHING CAN BE DONE in AC. IT CANT . BELIEVE ME.

[David Shorter]

OK lets get back to basics
I said it could all be done in ArchiCAD, I didn't all the info was in ArchiCAD although it can be. What I would do is create a series of tables, (which is what happens when you create an new database in ArchiCAD), text files with a code (primary key) and data (this could cost or rules). I would use the data extention within the property script of the property object to 'look up' and 'report' and 'apply rules' based on a combination of internal (geometry info) and external data. There are many ways this could be done, using a smart zone tool could do the same job...
The advantage of both these options is that the final report can be generated directly from ArchiCAD immediately any changes are made.
If this is tied into an annotation system using labels then you have a fully coordinated set of documents.
Really depends on the direction you wish to go.....

[Anonymous]

laszlonagy wrote:
- Tell me how much do use utilize AC's built-in graphic templates, do you find them useful or would you need different ones. Can you create your own using data provided in AC Help?

All I want is to produce a graphic window /door schedule where the drawings are all to the same specified scale.

It needs to list the actual w/d numbers applicabe toe each unit and possibly the total quantity.

Secindly it might be good to list other relevant info such as materials & hardware employed - I realize this would have to be associated with each unit in the model somehow.

[Anonymous]

I am always amazed at discussions like this.
Like using my Commodore 64 to keep recepies, yes it can be done.
But who cares?
In fact, I want to know from my Virtual Model, how many 2X6 to build it (or tiles to put on the wall) This is easy math for a computer. The info to do the calculations is contained in the models database. I just want to output that info easily.
If you know some BASIC, you could get the old Commodore to tell you what you needed to bake a cake. But you had to be a programmer to create & operate the info system (albeit on a pretty basic level)
So later, I could pay a programmer to make a program for me so I could be a cook who knew a bit about a new tool (computer). That allowed me to be a more productive cook by learning a small amount of new information (using a database)
The programmer acknowledged that I knew something about cooking but had to assume I was not a programmer, nor wanted to be. That's his job.
I know residential construction technique, design criteria and a good deal about computers generally and AC specifically. But I wouldn't waste my time trying to use AC as a takeoff tool because the programmers have not given me the tools to do the job. I need to delve into the world of scripting, parameter tweaking, output creation....
This is the stuff I paid $Ks for Graphisoft to do for me so I can design.
Yes, I get that a craftsman needs to know his tools on an intimate basis, how to use and maintain etc. But the user of a skillsaw should not have to become an electrician to use all the features of a good saw.
Takeoffs are a basic and essential function of design. A virtual model must contain the data to qualify as a virtual model. But it must make it accessible to be a well designed tool.
Re takeoffs, AC doesn't.
It must be fixed. It is shameful that Graphisoft is going into V10 without this opvious function.

[Anonymous]

There doesnt seem to be a way to automatically take off the materials on the four walls of a room. The zone tool can be set to inherit the boundary wall and trimming elements materials and should therefore logically be able to reproduce this in an IS. This is particularly important for Interior Finishes Schedules.

[Anonymous]

laszlonagy wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I am currently looking into ways to make some modifications to the Calculation-related portions of the ArchiCAD Documentation so as to improve it. I would like to ask for your help. I'd like to get a firm reality on how ArchiCAD Users relate to this part of the program...

Dear Graphisoft,
This thread is nearly 2 years old and will be by the time ArchiCAD 10 is released. We still don't have clear info/direction as to how to "successfully" implement the various calculation features described by the miscellaneous replies. Hopefully you are not fully relying only on these posts and are, in addition, actually coordinating with end-user offices to implement real world solutions. I'm not suggesting that the previous posts are not relevant (they're very relevant!)...I just feel that you won't really be able to develop a comprehensive set of solutions/documentation without having to prove it on a real project(s).

Can we please have some more guidance??? How about some good working examples??? How about a FYI describing some "Best Practices" for implementing the different features.

There seems to be so much potential...but a proper roadmap has never been available....you can't even "purchase" one from a third party...yet???

Please consider the following quote from your own website:

"...You will immediately benefit from the comprehensive listing, quantity take-offs and schedule capabilities of the Virtual BuildingTM database, which tracks area, volume, price, number of pieces, and more. As a Building Information Authoring Tool, ArchiCAD not only can automatically calculate and present the information in standard or custom layouts, but also can export it for use in other software..."

Note my emphasis on "immediately benefit." Its no secret that this is a little more difficult than the statement implies. The promise indicated in this value proposition is used every day to sell ArchiCAD...Please give us the tools/info to make it more real.

In closing, I'm not ranting as much as I'm trying to stress the importance of these features to your dedicated user base. I truly believe ArchiCAD is the "Undisputed Best" solution available...Let us help you make it even better!!!

Can we safely assume that this issue is being more fully addresed in Version 10?

Thanks for listening,
Dan Kunschik

[Anonymous]

Dan wrote:
Can we safely assume that this issue is being more fully addresed in Version 10?

So let it be, I am for it!
Joseph