[upFront.eZine]Constructor/Estimator + Autodesk IFC (!?!)

[stefan]

In the current upFront.eZine (a quality CAD-mailing-list) there is an article on the new Graphisoft Constructor & Estimator programs.
http://www.upfrontezine.com/current.htm

But there is also a very unfortunate error:

Graphisoft is looking for a growth strategy. They've got their CAD software (ArchiCAD) and FM software [facilities management], and they've dabbled in other areas, like supporting Autodesk's IFC [industry foundation classes] for exchanging AEC models between software packages. [...]

Autodesk's IFC? Oh my God. If Graphisoft hears about this, they will explode...

FWIW, the mailing-list is usually very accurate and to the point, although not AEC-specific and often talking about Autodesk software...

[stefan]

FWIW, the mailing-list owner is replying that IFC was originally something set up by Autodesk, but they more or less lost their interest later on.

Anyone care to react?

[Balazs Simonyi]

stefan wrote:
FWIW, the mailing-list owner is replying that IFC was originally something set up by Autodesk, but they more or less lost their interest later on.

"Issued in July 1998, Release 1.5.1 became the basis for the first commercial IFC compliant software applications with Allplan (Nemetschek), ArchiCAD (Graphisoft) and Architectural Desktop (Autodesk) being the first applications to market. In mid 2000, these became the first applications to be certified under the IAI Facilitated Approval procedures. Other applications have since become Release 1.5.1 certified."

from http://www.iai-international.org/iai_international/Information/History.html

So, the mailing-list-owner is wrong.

Balazs

[stefan]

Balazs wrote:

stefan wrote:
FWIW, the mailing-list owner is replying that IFC was originally something set up by Autodesk, but they more or less lost their interest later on.

"Issued in July 1998, Release 1.5.1 became the basis for the first commercial IFC compliant software applications with Allplan (Nemetschek), ArchiCAD (Graphisoft) and Architectural Desktop (Autodesk) being the first applications to market. In mid 2000, these became the first applications to be certified under the IAI Facilitated Approval procedures. Other applications have since become Release 1.5.1 certified."

from http://www.iai-international.org/iai_international/Information/History.html

So, the mailing-list-owner is wrong.

Balazs

From that URL:
"In August 1994, 12 US based companies joined together to examine the potential for making different software applications work together. Basing their efforts around the then newly developed ARX development system for AutoCAD Release 13, they felt that there was significant economic benefit to be gained from this interoperability of software if only it could be shown to work. "
That doesn't seem to be to far away from Autodesk...

Anyway, I'm glad to see that Graphisoft has a strong commitment to IFC. Let's hope it can grow and be the format for the future, but that's hard to predict.

By the time Revit supports IFC (I'm told it won't take that much longer anymore), then all important BIM-software will be compliant, which is a good proof of it's adoption.

[Aaron Bourgoin]

UpFront E-Zine cobered the reponse to the article on Graphisoft Constructor in this week's issue. Interesting to see Randall Newton (one of the higher ups at Cyon Research) also asking about AutoDesk's fathering of IFCs.

UpFront E-Zine's Ralph Grabowski should be known to many in this forum as he co-authored the ArchiCAD for AutoCAD Users book along with the redoubtable Geoffrey Moore Langdon. If you don' tread it already check out Grabowski's e-zine which is published every Tuesday, dentist permitting.

from the Letters Section:

RE: Graphisoft Virtual Construction

"Sorry to disappoint our friends at Graphisoft, but Intergraph was marrying 3D design with 3D reviews for constructability, aesthetics, and schedule simulation since the late 1980s for the AEC and plant design industries.

"Our DesignReview and ModelView applications and their successor, SmartPlant Review, have been taking intelligent models from our flagship plant design application, Plant Design System, as well as our architectural suite (Project Architect and the accompanying Professional Engineer series). Some of our customers have integrated 10,000-task Primavera schedules with SmartPlant Review via our ScheduleReview interface, available since the mid-1990s.

"We agree that this is a great opportunity for the engineering software business. It's a tough business, though, and staying power is hard to come by. Good luck to Graphisoft."
- Keith Denton, Executive Manager
Business Development, Process, Power & Marine
Intergraph Corporation



"Great to see construction news in your ezine. I hope it gets more builders on your list and continues the industry dialog about the power of models beyond design and into estimating, project planning, purchasing and construction."
- Ken Stowe, Revit Construction Manager
Autodesk

and

Re: Autodesk's IFC

"Autodesk's? Since when?"
- Randall Newton



"IFC is an ISO standard and does not belong to Autodesk or any other company. Autodesk's support for this standard has been lax in the extreme, to the extent that they outsourced the development of support for it in ADT to another company; Revit does not support it yet. Graphisoft have supported the development of the IFC standard and have probably the best implementation of it in the industry."
- Rory Bergin, Director IT
HTA Architects, England



"This is a very unfortunate mistake. Graphisoft are very firm believers and supporters for the software/vendor-neutral IFC, and have support-plugins for all released versions, free of charge. A big difference with Autodesk, who only supports IFC in ADT (not in Revit, yet) and who charges for the plugin <www.inopso.com>."
- Stefan Boeykens
Belgium



"Though Autodesk played a key role in the initial development of the IFCs and the founding of the International Alliance for Interoperability (IAI) in 1995, the IFCs belong to the IAI and not to Autodesk. The distinction is significant because the IFCs are a public, non-proprietary data format definition, and not a proprietary data format of any individual software company."
- Michael Tardif, Editorial Director
ZweigWhite, USA



"I don't think Autodesk has had very much input into IFC data exchange. To imply that they invented it is at least as inaccurate as their print ad claiming to have invented BIM. Revit doesn't have it, AutoCAD can't use it, and ADT relies on (very competent) third-party support.

"Surely this is a slip of the finger on your keyboard. The editorial content of your eZine is first rate, and so if you know something I don't please clarify the statement."
- Aaron Bourgoin
virtual NORTH, Canada



The editor replies, "When Release 13 came out and custom object became possible through ObjectARx programming, Autodesk realized there was a problem translating drawings. So they created the IAI, which created the IFCs. Later, Autodesk lost interest, first making the IAI independent, and then handing over Autodesk IFC programming to a third-party.

"I was being provocative, but correct in a literary manner. We speak of Edison's lightbulb, even though he no longer makes them."



Mr Bourgoin responds, "I appreciate the clarification. In the context of your piece on Graphisoft, the quote still seems somewhat offhand and to those of us who know less of the history of the IAI, BLIS, etc. than you, it could be taken out of context."



Mr Tardif responds, "Well, take comfort in that if you must, but the Edison/lightbulb analogy does not, in my opinion, port over very well to Autodesk/IFCs. Knowledge of IAI and IFCs, and their potential benefit to the industry is not as widely known as it should be, even among otherwise well-informed upFront.eZine readers.

"I also think that most readers are unlikely to detect the intended provocative tone (it certainly escaped me entirely, even on second reading), and are more likely to take the statement at face value.

"The industry bemoans the problems of seamless, reliable data sharing, but no one seems to know that the technology already exists to solve those problems today. Software developers at a number of AEC software companies have admitted to me privately that IFC support could be incorporated into their applications in as little as twelve months, if only the market demanded it. It's not a primarily a technical problem -- it's a business problem.

"The reason the market does not demand it is that most people don't know how to ask for it, and don't realize how quickly it could be done. So, sadly, we keep limping along with proprietary data formats that inhibit fundamental innovation and process reform in the construction industry."

- - -

"Despite the fact that it always seems like Cadalyst tries to beat you to the news punch releasing their ezine, I always find myself reading yours first. Keep up the great work!"
- Darren Young
Cold Spring Granite Company

The editor replies, "They tend to ship their's during the day, while we tend to ship our's in the evening."



"I enjoyed the whole 3D CAD debate series. All I can add is history repeats itself; only differently."
- Odin Cary, Principal
ARCHIdigm