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(Rant) Artlantis crashing with multiple lights in......

rm
Advocate
Problem #1
I do fair amount of interior renderings with lighting in artlantis ( I should say, I try to anyway). To be clear, I will set 20, 30, 70 lights in a model, some down lights, some general lighting to get as close to "photo realistic" as possible (see attached image) with in the limits of the software. Artlantis allows 128 lights.....how they picked this limit I don't understand, but I am not exceeding the limit, though I could if the program would let me.

It is frustrating to no end, when I have the lighting dialogue box open and try to re-arrange my list of lights, once I have place several lights in the plan in artlantis, the program will eventually CRASH. Usually only after I have been doing two hours of work and have not saved changes.

If I am "tweaking" light settings while switching between individual lights before the preview window completely refreshes, the program will CRASH!!!!!!

It has gotten to the point where I have to save my file virtually every two "tweaks" of lighting or I am in danger of losing data. Problem with this is it takes a long time to save the file if there are alot of lights or polygons.

The program is fine with a couple of lights, but if you try to get into realistic lighting with many lights, the progam just craps out. I have written to Abvent, but they just ignore the problem......big surprise there.

By the way this problem has occured since v3.5 of arlantis.
I use a G4 933 with 1.5 gigs of RAM and a 120 gig hardrive. Its not the machines problem, it IS the software, it is very unstable when it comes to minipulating many light sources.

Problem #2
Light from general lights in artlantis passes through walls and floors.............why?????? This really screws up a rendering and forces me to set up lighting different for different views, this should not be the case. I don't know what walls are made of in France, but I'm guessing light does not pass through them.

I wish those of us on the MAC side of the fence could get our hands on a better rendering programs than artlantis. I know artlantis is relatively fast, and simple to use. But for truly photo quality renderings, in my opinion, it is not up to the task. I may have to look at electric image, learning curve is huge as I understand it. I would like radiosity rendering instead of the limits of "global illumination" (poor mans radiosity) that artlantis has.

Any software advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,

rm

ADF 005.jpg
Robert Mariani
MARIANI design studio, PLLC
Architecture / Architectural Photography
www.robertmariani.com

Mac OSX 11.6
AC 24 / 25
14 REPLIES 14

Anonymous
Not applicable
Check out Cinema 4D. It is fairly easy to learn, Has both GI and Radiosity, you can use HDRI to light a scene. and has a new sketch rendering engine that puts ArchiCAD's sketch rendering in 8 to shame. There is a demo you can download from Maxon. HTH

Karl Ottenstein
Moderator
MichaelRensing wrote:
Check out Cinema 4D. has a new sketch rendering engine that puts ArchiCAD's sketch rendering in 8 to shame.
Wrong thread, I know. But, thanks for pointing out the new sketch module for C4D, Michael. The few examples on the Maxon site are pretty impressive - tapered strokes in one Japenese-quill style have no computer-rendered look to them at all. But, $350 more for that module as far as I can tell...

I still feel like I've got plenty of learning to do with C4D XL7 yet ... is there anything that special in 8 and 8.5 that should tempt me to buy the $500 upgrade until I'm as savy as you? (Just can't see paying $850 to get the sketch module too, cool as that seems.)

To rm: with a better lighting model, you'll probably need fewer lights and improve the realism of your interiors ... lots of examples at the Maxon site. (Lighting was the main reason I got C4D when it was on a special deal a year or so ago ... but I have been amazed at the power and quality of everything else - search this list and you'll come across some tutorials from Michael and Stefan.)

Thanks,
Karl
One of the forum moderators   •   AC 25 USA and earlier   •   MacOS 11.6.6, iMac Pro

Anonymous
Not applicable
I am expecting 8.5 and Sketch and Toon tomorrow, so I can give updates about it then. I do alot of modeling in Cinema, mainly soft furniture. (I will have a modeling a simple lighting tutorial avaiable soon... I haven't forgot, it has just been hectic) and the weighting of Hypernurbs is invaluable. Not to mention all the interface inprovemnets such as multiple selections without having to group. edge selections. 8.5 is supposed to have inproved radiosity, better material mixing, sub-surface scattering (think of marble columns, how they "glow" at the edges). But if Cinema is going to be only a rendering package, I think 7 will be all that you need for now. That is until Cinema has the instant photoreal button added.

Karl Ottenstein
Moderator
MichaelRensing wrote:
I am expecting 8.5 and Sketch and Toon tomorrow, so I can give updates about it then. I do alot of modeling in Cinema, mainly soft furniture. (I will have a modeling a simple lighting tutorial avaiable soon... I haven't forgot, it has just been hectic) and the weighting of Hypernurbs is invaluable. Not to mention all the interface inprovemnets such as multiple selections without having to group. edge selections. 8.5 is supposed to have inproved radiosity, better material mixing, sub-surface scattering (think of marble columns, how they "glow" at the edges). But if Cinema is going to be only a rendering package, I think 7 will be all that you need for now. That is until Cinema has the instant photoreal button added.
Thanks, Michael! Look forward to reading your review when you have time ... and of course the tutorial.

Cheers,
Karl
One of the forum moderators   •   AC 25 USA and earlier   •   MacOS 11.6.6, iMac Pro

rm
Advocate
Michael,

Thanks for the tip. I down loaded the Cinema 4D demo. Uh, from ArchiCAD what file format do you suggest I save my model to so I can import it into Cinema 4D to test out?

Thank you,
RM
Robert Mariani
MARIANI design studio, PLLC
Architecture / Architectural Photography
www.robertmariani.com

Mac OSX 11.6
AC 24 / 25

Anonymous
Not applicable
I believe that both 3DS and Wavefront will work. I have used 3DS with no problems. In fact it worked so well that I felt no longing for any special translator or AC to C4D add-on. I found that I could replace the ArchiCAD building model in the Cinema 4D setting with a revised version with very little trouble. As I recall, I did have to reset the materials and it was almost as easy as Artlantis.

Karl Ottenstein
Moderator
rm wrote:
from ArchiCAD what file format do you suggest I save my model to so I can import it into Cinema 4D to test out?
Also take a look at:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=631#631
One of the forum moderators   •   AC 25 USA and earlier   •   MacOS 11.6.6, iMac Pro

Anonymous
Not applicable
I am sorry for this very late reply, but I have one question and one request :

- Who did you sent your question to at Abvent ?

- Would you please send me a sample file that crashes above a certain number of lamps?

Best regards

rm
Advocate
Jacques wrote:
I am sorry for this very late reply, but I have one question and one request :

- Who did you sent your question to at Abvent ?

- Would you please send me a sample file that crashes above a certain number of lamps?

Best regards
Jacques, I sent two seperate reports and files through the "Incident Report In North America" on your web site. I have no record of it because it is Abvents form.

I will send you a copy if you give me your direct email address.

Trust me, I can crash the program almost at will once I start manipulating lighting for interior scenes. As previously noted, this is not a problem with one or two light sources, or shaders for that matter.

The file that created the rendering I have attached to this thread must have crashed the program 30-40 times. It does have the maximum 128 light sources. However the current project I am working on only has about 30 lights, and it crashes too.

Looking forward to your reply.

Regards,
Architects Design Forum, Ltd.
Robert Mariani
Robert Mariani
MARIANI design studio, PLLC
Architecture / Architectural Photography
www.robertmariani.com

Mac OSX 11.6
AC 24 / 25

rm
Advocate
Meanwhile, 9 days later, still waiting to hear from you Jacques to send the files!!!!!!

Have to ask, why does it seem to take so long to hear back from Abvent on any Tech Support question.......very frustrating.

Architects Design Forum, Ltd.

RM
Robert Mariani
MARIANI design studio, PLLC
Architecture / Architectural Photography
www.robertmariani.com

Mac OSX 11.6
AC 24 / 25

Anonymous
Not applicable
Reply to rm.

Problem #1

About Art*lantis crash when re-arranging the lights please update your Art*lantis 4.5 into 4.5.6 at:
http://www.abvent.com/us/software/artlantis/update.asp

Why Art*lantis manage only 128 light sources? We had to put a limit, do you think it's easy (as Art*lantis is today) to manipulate 128 lights sources? above all when you need to change their status, so isn't it better not to place light source as they are in the reality but simulate the reality with less light sources?

Problem #2

About the lights which pass thru the walls. This is a well known problem links due to the way Art*lantis manages the geometry and the materials. Nonetheless 2 ways to avoid that:

1- If you put lamp shadows at 100% no more pass thru wall
2- e.g. you have 2 rooms side by side, you have no light on in the scene except in one of the room your lamp has shadows at 70%, put a camera in the other room, you might see the light passing thru the wall. put a lamp in this room if the light of this other room still disturb you switch it off.

Now we are working on the future Art*lantis version which is been completly rewritten and free of "dust". So trust on us for improving our product and giving you the best rendering solution you have ever dream.

rm
Advocate
Picard, Thanks for the responce - but why did it take 3 months to recieve?



Picard writes "Problem #1

About Art*lantis crash when re-arranging the lights please update your Art*lantis 4.5 into 4.5.6 at:
http://www.abvent.com/us/software/artlantis/update.asp"

I am on v 4.5.6, have been using it since it came out. This IS NOT the solution!




Picard writes "Why Art*lantis manage only 128 light sources? We had to put a limit, do you think it's easy (as Art*lantis is today) to manipulate 128 lights sources?"

Do YOU think users want to place so many lights? Because Radiosity is absent as a feature, and Global lighting is at best, a cumbersome imitation of radiosity, we have to place many more lights than we would like to in order to simulate, as best as possible, real lighting.




Picard writes "above all when you need to change their status, so isn't it better not to place light source as they are in the reality but simulate the reality with less light sources?"

We are not dealing with magic here. Just because I "wish" for an affect,
does not mean it happens"




Picard writes " Problem #2

About the lights which pass thru the walls. This is a well known problem links due to the way Art*lantis manages the geometry and the materials. "

Thank you for admittinig this IS a PROBLEM. I'll assume since you know it is a problem Abvent is working on a proper solution!




Picard writes " Nonetheless 2 ways to avoid that:
1- If you put lamp shadows at 100% no more pass thru wall"

Picard, no shadws are 100% black, or you would not be able to see them.....shadows vary and generally are tinted by the material upon which they are cast.....setting shadows to 100% is not a good solution, and further hampers trying to achieve realistic renderings.




Picard writes "Now we are working on the future Art*lantis version which is been completly rewritten and free of "dust". So trust on us for improving our product and giving you the best rendering solution you have ever dream."

I am looking forward to it, as my clients become more aware of how realistic renderings CAN look, they expect it, and I wish to give it to them. So if you need a beta tester, I am willing to help out.

Regards,
Robert Mariani


PS. Abvent would do itself well by responding to Tech Support questions in less than 3 months, and actually answer questions sent to them directlly, so as not to have to explore these issues in a public forum. I have emailed these questions to Abvent previously, as I noted, but I have never received any responce.
Robert Mariani
MARIANI design studio, PLLC
Architecture / Architectural Photography
www.robertmariani.com

Mac OSX 11.6
AC 24 / 25

Anonymous
Not applicable
Dear Robert,

1- If in 4.5.6 version you keep having crash problem while managing the lights I'll be glad if you could send me an .atl file getting this trouble, so I'll check it.
2- I don't know the project size you are dealing with but I'm still quite impressed that you need so much light sources, so if you don't mind I'll be glad to take a look at one of your .atl file so this way the discussion will become more concrete. (Files you could send will be for internal use only I will open you our ftp web site to upload).
3- Lights passing thru walls, such it is with Art*lantis since the beginning. This can't be fixed in the actual version. Technical choice and compromise had to be taken.

You are welcome to participate to the future betatest of the future Art*lantis version.

Please to do so confirm it to me by e-mail at:

picard@abvent.fr

Regards
Alain Picard
Abvent

rm
Advocate
Dear Alain,

Thanks for your reply. Check your email, I have sent you my address. I would like to take you up on your offer to upload the file to your ftp site.
This is a large file, along with additional textures for the file. I look forward to your instructions.


Regards,
Architects Design Forum, Ltd.


Robert Mariani
Robert Mariani
MARIANI design studio, PLLC
Architecture / Architectural Photography
www.robertmariani.com

Mac OSX 11.6
AC 24 / 25

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