Old Mac performance

[Thomas Holm]

This thread has moved from

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=21003#21003

Fine Glenn,
after waiting for a long while to get our finances in order we've finally upgraded from 7 to 8.1. I was surprised to find that 8.1 runs acceptably fast even on my old Pismo (PowerbookG3Firewire2000 with OSX.3.5), which I use at home for mailing and browsing etc. I installed AC there just because of curiosity. And since AC9 is supposed to be faster than AC8.1, I guess this 4years+ laptop has some life in it yet. It's amazing to use a machine that after more than four years still gets faster with every O/S upgrade!

But we'll have to buy faster machines at the office anyway. I'm hoping the iMac G5 will be fast enough, because it hurts me in the wallet to shell out the tons of money the Powermacs cost. A dual 2.5 GHz PM with a decent third-party LCD screen (21" samsung) costs the equivalent of USD4700 over here. I know they perform well compared to a similar PC, but the issue is I don't need all of it, and that I can get good-enough performance in AC with a PC that costs me half of the PM. I'm hoping the iMac will be good enough too 😉

And I've used Mac since 1985. But I can't afford a BMW, I'm driving a SAAB. And Steve Jobs seems focused on making Mac the BMW of computing.

Glenn wrote:

Thomas wrote

I see from you signature that you've already got an iMac G5! How's it performing in Archicad?

Sorry for the misleading signature Thomas... I was a bit premature in updating my information as I anxiously wait for my pre-order to arrive (Apple Canada promises very soon).

I will let you know how it runs AC 8.1 (and AC 9.0 when that arrives from GSCNE). Hopefully soon!

(Only concern is with the NVIDIA video card... it is an 18-month old card that was a "value" performer when first released. Guess the tight confines of the new iMac don't allow for much more, or Apple is saving the better performance for the towers and/or future upgrades.)


Glenn

[glenn_peters]

Thank you for the move Thomas.

Yes -- I did consider the G5 tower options as well as I've always been a bit leery of purchasing an "all-in-one" computer with the screen and motherboard combined. As others have noted, the lifespan of a good monitor can certainly exceed the CPU in this industry and keeping these components unbundled is probably a wise decision.

However, the costs do mount as you note. Here in Canada, the 20-inch screen from Apple is about $1799 (yes, you can get cheaper from others but where is the fun in that?)

When you consider that the same 20-inch screen combined with the 1.8 GHz G5 iMac innards costs $2499, you can see that you've managed to get everything else for approximately $700 (relatively cheap in the Apple universe; no comment about Wintel).

I'm currently on a 600MHz G3 so the speed improvement should be dramatic. While we have ArchiCAD 8.1 (and it is a massive improvement speed-wise over AC 8 on the Macintosh), our older hardware and large number of projects started prior to AC 8 keep us on ArchiCAD 7 most of the time.

There have been some preliminary benchmarks posted for the new G5 iMac as follows:

Cinebench results:

CINEBENCH 2003 v1
****************************************************
Processor : iMac G5
MHz : 1.8 GHZ
Number of CPUs : 1
Operating System : 10.3.5

Graphics Card : 5200
Resolution : 1440x900 (17-inch screen)
Colour Depth : millions

****************************************************
Rendering (Single CPU): 243 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): --- CB-CPU

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 228 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 558 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 695 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 3.05

****************************************************

and an Xbench score of 134.71


* at first glance the 243 score is not that impressive as other Cinebench rendering results for Macintosh computers are:

DP G5 2.5ghz: 649
DP G5 2.0ghz: 522
DP G4 1.42ghz: 247
PB G4 1.5ghz: 135

For those on Windows OS, these machines post the following:
DP Xeon 3.06ghz: 655
DP Opteron 2.0ghz: 523
DP G5 1.8ghz: 471
SP P4 3.2ghz: 384
SP G5 1.8ghz: 251
SP G5 1.6ghz: 222

So faster than a 1.6GHz G5, practically a dead heat to the original single processor 1.8 G5 GHz tower. One big thing to remember, however, was that the initial benchmark was done on a "stock" iMac G5 without any RAM upgrade. Apple continues their strange policy of shipping machines with less than optimal RAM (the base should be 512MB minimum at this time!)

I'm getting mine with the stock RAM and upgrading via 3rd party RAM. Note that if install same capacity RAM DIMMs in both of the slots, they wil operate on a 128-bus. If a single DIMM or different capacity DIMMs are installed, each will work via a separate 64-bit bus (this from the Developer Notes available as a PDF download from the Apple site).

I will provide my first-hand impressions once the machine arrives and been set-up (complete with the RAM upgrade).


> Thomas also wrote:
> And I've used Mac since 1985. But I can't afford a BMW, I'm driving a SAAB.

Got you beat... used/owned Mac since 1984; first tried ArchiCAD in 1989 (owned since 1991), and I'm driving a 1964 Plymouth Valiant with push-button gear selector for the transmission.

[Thomas Holm]

I will provide my first-hand impressions once the machine arrives and been set-up (complete with the RAM upgrade).

Thanks Glenn,

I appreciate that. What interests me is overall speed impression when working in Archicad and other everyday tasks, not theoretical benchmarks. My dual G4 feels very fast despite its 533 MHz, because it responds to almost every move I make instantaneously, due to the dual processors. The G5 iMac lacks duality, but instead has the G5 speed, which I think is quite enough for most tasks. The things that feel slow on the G4 are 3D perspective generation, section updating and of course rendering.

As for beating, I think I tried Archicad first, on a Mac Plus in 1986.😉 It was the slowest I'd seen, only beat by a Norwegian CAD system called Jonathan! Didn't buy it until later (-92 I think). Microstation was our first serious CAD purchase, back in -89.

The Plymouth was called Chrysler Valiant over here, I think. I guess that was the model with a sloping back with a fake spare wheel cover on the hatch? It was very popular here for a while, among those rockers who couldn't afford -57 Cadillacs (the ones with the big tail fins, if you know what I mean 😉

Live well,

Thomas

[Thomas Holm]

All iMac G5 users might want to check out this Macfixit piece:
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=2004092402530870
It says that there is a significant speed increase if you install RAM in identical pairs. They will run on one 128-bit memory bus, where as the computer will handle non-identical RAM modules by splitting the memory bus in two 64-bit units, slowing some operations a bit.

[Aussie John]

Thomas wrote:

As for beating, I think I tried Archicad first, on a Mac Plus in 1986.😉 Thomas

My first experience with Archicad was on an SE30- luckily it had an external monitor. That was back in the days where you had to manually select the layer combinations and save the plot files one by one.

Introduction of hot linking and layer combinations was one of the most appreciated "productivity increase" features

[Anonymous]

I have an older setup that is VERY fast - and would highly recommend it to you since it is also very cheap. I would also recommend migrating to the desktop stuff and staying away from the powerbooks...

If you're not on AC9 yet, and not needing altivec, I would suggest;

G3 blue and white tower rev.2 for $150 (average price used)
1000MHz accelerator $250 new

This will be a VERY fast combination for you - not quite at 2.5GHz speeds - but if you keep it in OS9.1 or OS9.2 might be QUITE competitive with the 2.5s

Jonathan
contact me if you need help getting the cheap hardware.

[Thomas Holm]

G3 blue and white tower rev.2 for $150 (average price used)
1000MHz accelerator $250 new

That's $400. Definitely not worth it. If you have that kind of money, for Archicad, get the fastest used PC you can, or if Mac is a requirement, a Dual G4, with lots of memory and a decent graphics card. Avoid the G3s. They will be obsolete soon. And the Blue and White towers have special issues that you should avoid.

http://www.lowendmac.com/

is a good source for information about old Macs.

[Aussie John]

it can be easy to justify spending money on a faster computer if you find yourself looking at a little watch ( or hourglass) alot.