Poorly written GDL Part Libraries

[rm]

WARNING: THIS IS A RANT ABOUT GS AND OTHER VENDORS OF POORLY WRITTEN AND INCONSISTENT LIBRARY PARTS. So you may not want to waste your time reading this if you don't experience problems with library parts, in particular doors and windows.

Doors and windows are without question the most commonly used library parts in most ArchiCAD architectural projects. Being continually frustrated by the limitations of so many of the libraries available to us ( not that there are many ). So, recently I decided to try the new GS AC limited edition library for the US on a model with quite a few doors and windows. Initially I was excited to see what on the surface looked like a good set of doors and windows, with good adjustablility, especially for those who need fairly realistic looking windows and doors for their models.

That said, I have asked GS before, but they seem not understand the importance of being able to assign a different material selection for all exterior surfaces ( read, sash, frames, jambs, sills, aprons, trim, and the like) versus interior surfaces on doors and windows. This may not be important if you don't use your models for renderings, but for those of us who do, it is a problem. It takes countless hours and attention to detail when sellecting parameters for materials so that your renderings will appear correctly both from the inside and out.

However, because of GS inflexible decision to continue to make window and door parts the way that they do, models can not be made to look correctly, concurrently, both on the inside and outside where windows and doors have different material selections. For buildings using, say aluminum storefront, not a problem, but for too many other building, it is. This is absolutely maddening.

Oh, and while your at it GS it makes much more sense, even for those who don't assign materials to their objects, to gang all material selections under one heading called, oh I don't know, say MATERIALS!!!!!!!!!!!!

To help make matters worse, I just noticed that there is still an inconsistantcy in the GS windows in setting materials for different surfaces depending what wood windows you select. On awing windows for instance the exterior trim color controls the interior trim color. Yet on "W Single Hung2" window the interior and exterior trim colors are set independtly as they should be. To make matters worse yet, the exterior sash color can not be set independent of the interior sash material, again rarely on a wood or aluminum clad window would this happen in the real world.

It is really getting quite old to find window and door part developers not checking their parts thoroughly. I don't want to single out GS on this either, as there is another major vendor here in the US of a large library that has doors and windows included in it that alledgely works well with AC 9. This well known unamed library developer has SO MANY errors and inconsistantcies in its door and window library, its a joke. I wrote that developer several times starting in February this year, and most of the errors I pointed out to him have not been fixed yet. Yet that library is still available for sale at Objects Online as well as numerous locations on the web. That particular developer has in the past always fixed found problems, but for what ever reason now just keeps selling "broken" library parts.....unbelievable!!!!!!

Unfortunately, people keep buying these libraries, and until a lot of time is invested in them, they might not find what inconsistantcies exist until it is crucial to them, usually the day before a presentation is due, and there is no time to fix the problem.

But Graphisoft really has no excuse for inconsistencies in their windows and doors. Each of there parts should be fully tested, in straight and curved walls, and masonry veneer walls ( READ, EACH WINDOW AND DOOR FULLY TESTED ). If GS doesnot feel qualified to test their own parts, then they should hire some of their customer to independently to do so. Im tired of haveing my office be a perpetual beta test site for library part developers!!!!!!! I could NEVER get away with this sloppiness in my Architecture practice. I'd be in court constantly. I spend way too much time taking screen shots, sending them to GS and other developers, only to find the problems ignored.

If we go through the trouble of documenting the problems for you GS, you should take the responsibility to fix these problems, even its for just one user, if infact it is a real problem with the library part.

I am currently submitting over a dozen screen shots of inconsistencies to GS tech support us, for bad library parts. Hopefully they will quickly resolve these issues and reissue the parts before v10 comes out. But I'm guessing that GS is putting almost all of its efforts into v10 and problems found in AC 9.0 at this point, are being tabled indefinitely.

Come on GS, we are on version 9.0!!!!!!! Considering the current catch phrase is BIM, you would think you guys would get rid of all your dated, and unrealistic library parts, and finally commision top dog GDL developers to build really solid libraries, and contract them to keep them up to date. Split 1 million dollars amongst ten GDL Gurus.....trust me they will come out of the wood work to jump on this opportunity.

Your modeling capabilities are constantly limiting design, especially without the use of dozens of add-ons, and your library parts are dismal at best. Look how few available parts there are available compared to the AutoCAD world. Manufacturers throw themsleves at Autodesk customers with free parts. And as BIM moves more from a marketing term to a real necessity, you guys keep churning out the same old tired parts....more and more Architects currently using AC will have no choice but to switch to Revit.

Radically improve your modeling and documentation tools. Those who write to this forum are a minority of users, and while too many here seem willing to evangilize AC to their death at any cost to the rest of us., most just want to get their job done faster and with more effeciency and industry standardization.

AutoCAD is going to hand you your lunch with a serving of REVIT if you guys don't stop repeating the same errors. Listen and fix problems that users keep bringing to your attention, without being called out on the table, like......... ( disclaimer to readers, this is one of my wishlist items, this is really for GS benefit, just in case someones actually listening )

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=6583

....hope this was more than entertaining to those who made it this far
!

[Rob]

rm,
I understood your point that we're architects and not programmers etc... but I wanted to suggest some improvements at the GDL level (as I can programme in GDL) for GS that is (hopefully) listening to this debate. I would say that the priorities are:
fix AND set up the properly analysed and lasting standard for the most important elements like openings and structural elements (and I mean not just a bug-free script and UI but actually nice and tidy scripts written as examples for nerds like me).


...and may be after that we could have a parameter for different materials of 3D fire-extinguisher or better looking clock and the vase (I don't like those flowers in it).

[rm]

Rob wrote:
rm,
I understood your point that we're architects and not programmers etc... but I wanted to suggest some improvements at the GDL level

Rob, yes I see your point, and its a good one. I'm sure many GDL developers would appreciate that. That might encourage additional GDL gurus to jump into the mix as well.

I would not consider you a nerd just because you do have the skills to script GDL objects......now the Avatar, tha does have me wondering

Is that a Grommit and Wallace character?

[Rob]

mate, kenny is dead, I'am just using his skin...
hail to nerds!

[Karl Ottenstein]

rm wrote:

Karl wrote:
But, on a constructive note, perhaps the US people who have posted to this thread could comment on the revised doors/windows in the SE 9 library and give specific feedback to GS on what works, and what does not?

I think that my original posts are clearly in line with almost everyone who has posted here! I know you try to help people as much as you can on this forum, but you jumped the gun a little on your suggestion here.

Hi Robert,

I think you're not hearing what I intended. Your original post had many specific comments. It was both useful, as well as venting. 😉

I've only 'jumped the gun', if the intent of this thread is merely to complain about how awful things are and have been (and I certainly agree with you)...which is where this has gone from your original post, which had constructive, specific points such as lack of separate interior/exterior materials for windows/doors, inconsistent parameters, etc.

I spend countless hours doing screenshots and bug reports, etc. also ... and also loathe this waste of my time. So, I hear you! 😉

My point is about features, not bugs: what the window or door (e.g.) has been designed by GS to do (bugs aside).

Suppose the SE 9 windows cannot display the shape/style of sill you need, or you cannot produce the kind of frame required, etc. If these kinds of things are only talked about in the back channel with tech support, then nobody else here can chime in to support the request and provide the necessary weight to make it happen...or to augment the request for a more general solution. Further - like the time wasted by so many of us with screenshots/etc - other people will waste their time taking the same screenshots and making the same report and request.

So, again, I suggest that for this thread to be of any use - other than emotional venting - messages should describe what cannot be done today that is required for one's practice. If someone reading this thread cannot use the D1 Door (e.g.) for some reason, explain why... otherwise I don't think we'll ever see any improvements. If the UI isn't usable, say why. Etc.

Your original post has lots of good points, many of which should be polls for GS to get feedback on. The reality is that if one user asks for something, they are not likely to get it....unless that user represents a huge firm. GS just does not have the personnel or financial resources to satisfy each of our wishes. But, via polls and other feedback on these forums, we are able to band together and add weight to our requests in shear numbers and quality and quantity of comments.

Robert, you actually gave several specific shortcomings in the door/window parts in your original post. I was thinking more in terms of my friend Tom Waltz who said that the AC library was too limited for his company ... but did not say how or why. And others...

Really tired...this may not have been coherent, but I meant well...

Best regards,
Karl

[rm]

Hi Karl,

Let me start by saying that yesterday GS US techsupport contacted me to acknowledge the problems I submitted to their attention, and to log the issues with GS development. So I am pleased that they are willing to look at the problems, I just hope they act on them.

My frustration on the library front is this is that I have NEVER designed a building with AC, since 1994, where I did not find a problem with at least one window or door type problem be that from GS, or DDGI.

Now, we render almost every design of ours, so maybe we look at library parts much more closely than the average firm, but none the less, every building has windows and doors. You would think at this point someone at GS would think they need to get it at least their doors and windows 100% right. I cannot believe with the input of architects that GS cannot make all their door and windows to look realistic with realistic parameters, and work in EVERY wall type that is available in AC. If not by now, then when will they......v10?

Karl wrote:
Suppose the SE 9 windows cannot display the shape/style of sill you need, or you cannot produce the kind of frame required, etc. If these kinds of things are only talked about in the back channel with tech support, then nobody else here can chime in to support the request and provide the necessary weight to make it happen...or to augment the request for a more general solution. Further - like the time wasted by so many of us with screenshots/etc - other people will waste their time taking the same screenshots and making the same report and request.

... otherwise I don't think we'll ever see any improvements. If the UI isn't usable, say why. Etc.

Good point Karl, I have several images I could upload, but I only know how to load one at a time.....so I did not want to clog up the forum with images. And now that GS techsupport has started to look into it, I thought it was a mute point. But I will try to load at least one in this post.

Karl wrote:
GS just does not have the personnel or financial resources to satisfy each of our wishes. But, via polls and other feedback on these forums, we are able to band together and add weight to our requests in shear numbers and quality and quantity of comments.

Karl, lets be clear, I am not asking GS to customize program for my personal needs, nor do I think anyone should, unless it is a truly useful improvement that many users could benefit from. But what they do include in the program should work well!

This post started, as you noted about very specific problems that GS keeps reproducing, version to version to version, at least when it comes to library parts. Like PlotMaker, library parts seem to one of the "stepchildren" that GS refuses to give the appropriate attention it deserves.

On this point I feel confident in stating, like many who use AC I generally think it is a very good tool for architecture and other related design applications. However, Revit sits in the background continually, quietly improving, and it now has many features I would love to have in AC, and interestingly some very familiar user interfaces. In the not too distant future Revit will surpass AC in ease of use, modeling, and production, unless GS gets up off its --- hands, and revolutionizes the program starting with spot on quality control. If they don't, I predict you and I will be using Revit inside of 5 years, along with many other current AC customers. And eventually Gehry Technologies will be the big boy on the block.....they are light years ahead of anyone when it comes to BIM.

Karl, thanks for clarifying your post!

[Anonymous]

I looked the example pdf that rm attached. As far as I can recall, the problem with text description being truncated in the object dialog can be overcome by enlarging the dialog box. This is described elsewhere in a previous thread/post - which I can't locate at the moment, but perhaps someone else can give you the link. I think it involves resizing the whole dialog box and then reducing the width of the left hand part of the dialog by dragging. As a dabbler in GDL (see some of my free objects in this forum), and in defence of Graphisoft, it is sometimes v. difficult to effectively describe the parameter sufficiently concisely so as to ensure that it fits in the 'minimal' dialog box!!
As an aside, at the 2004 ArchiCad University Europe, delegates certainly stressed, almost unanimously, and in no uncertain terms (to the developers attending) the importance of effective Library parts.
Having said that, some of the GS supplied parts are very good, but I can only agree that the doors and windows can be frustratingly inconsistent and inadequate. This would explain why companies like CadImage and DDGI have created their own objects, and surely someone at GS must have realised by now that this is an area that needs an urgent and comprehensive overhaul.

[Anonymous]

MikeS wrote:
I looked the example pdf that rm attached. As far as I can recall, the problem with text description being truncated in the object dialog can be overcome by enlarging the dialog box. This is described elsewhere in a previous thread/post - which I can't locate at the moment, but perhaps someone else can give you the link. I think it involves resizing the whole dialog box and then reducing the width of the left hand part of the dialog by dragging.

Here, you can check for David Maudlin's solution, a good one.
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=38254&highlight=#38254

[TomWaltz]

Karl wrote:
I was thinking more in terms of my friend Tom Waltz who said that the AC library was too limited for his company ... but did not say how or why. And others...

OK, since Karl is being so nice, I'll elaborate:
(OK, Karl is ALWAYS nice to everyone, I'm the one who's a jerk all the time)

Keep in mind, many of these were decided in early 2003 when we first bought Archicad, and were on Archicad 8.0, but I think many of the same issues still apply. I should also mention that I have tinkered with almost every object we ever bought from anyone if they did not work as expected. I consider ObjectsOnline to be a toolbox where I can buy parts faster/easier than I can make them myself, not final products. If CADImage had not provided locked scripts, I probably would have been altering them as well. I am a tinkerer and a programmer at heart, and do not expect everyone to share my strangeness in this respect. I enjoy GDL programming, and have been fortunate to find myself in a position where I can do a lot of it for a demanding staff who wants to push the liimits.

For the record, with the exception of my Stairmaker complaints, I have created objects to answer every complaint here.

Default settings. I felt that the object library should have defaults that can be user-set like anything else. If you want your objects to have a certain pen, linetype, font, text size, line type, or detail level, you should be able to set that for all objects. All the ideas of favorites or modules are really just workarounds for that the Libraries should be able to do for you. With 30 users, it's hard enough to make things uniform. Having our own object library meant having everything LOOK consistant.

Dividing options into objects. Having different objects for single doors, double doors, and bi-swing doors, especially before you could transfer parameters inside the Object Settings menu. Even cabinets had different 1-door, 2-door and 3-door objects. The DDGI Smart Parts approach was much more efficient and easier to understand, with separate doors by TYPE, such as "swinging" "bi-fold" and "sliding." Each type then allowed for various types within. Users found it much easier to understand, and it required only a handful of objects instead of a dozen or more.

Sheer power. I saw the MSA detail library, and was rather underwhelmed, It was nice that GS included studs and bricks and fasteners, but even AutoCAD can do that. What impressed me was the batt insulation object. A very simple object with only a few parameters, but that repeated as needed to fill the void. Kind of the same thing that bricks and CMUs should do in section (or plan) details, like trusses should do in section (preferably 3D, but 2D will be fine), like a viny siding should do along the surface of a wall.... a little GDL and a few FOR/NEXT loops, and I have exactly that. It immediately simplified drawing wall/building sections with objects that can stretch to a certain length, and repeat within that length based on just a few parameters.

Zero size errors. To me, if an object freaks out with a parameter set to "zero" or "none", or even a very small number like 1/16", that needs to be covered in the object's error checking (probably in the parameter or master script). "Invalid matrix generation" and other errors should not exist. Ever. No matter what parameter values the user enters. You want a 15'-0" x 0'-1" door? The object needs to either warn you when you type in the value, or it needs to accept the value without error. Finding out when you generate an elevation or when you get an unexplained error from Plotmaker/BGArchicad is too late.

Organizaton. Stairmaker handrails and Doric columns are found under Division 3: concrete. Does this seem normal to anyone? Those railings do not look like concrete to me.....

Construction methods. Most engineers place steel by the top of beam, not the bottom as the GS library does. That's a pretty major pain, since beams tend to not be normal dimensions. They are not 8", they are 8 3/64". It is kind of important that if an engineer tells you top of steel is 11'-3 3/4" that you are not trying to subtract off the size of the beam, especially if that beam size changes, with 4 different beam sizes changed to 4 other different beam sizes, then you have to both change the beam size AND change each beam's elevation by a different amount. Seems like a beam object placed to Top was pretty important.

Railings. Since the Stairmaker railings border on useless, the only alternative was to use the railing objects. The railiings are placed by a total length (good) and a number of ballusters (????). They need to be placed by spacing of ballusters. Code requires a 4" sphere not fit between. That should be how the parameters can be entered. A center-to-center spacing is more important than the number, and the back-and-forth is pretty counterproductive, since even stretching a railing 3 or 4" can make a difference. "is 12 enough? how about 15? 16? 18? nope, too many, 17 it is!" With manufacturers using architect's drawings for shops at an ever-growing rate in an ever-more-litigious world, its pretty important that this is correct.

Slopes. Most parameters ask for angled objects like trusses and roofs in angles. Most Architects I know measure things in slope: how many inches per foot, or proportionally, how many feet per 12?

Elevators. Sometimes elevators, like doors or windows, happen in pairs or trios or more, and some buildings have more than 12 floors. Kind of seems like an artificial limitaton

Zones. Sometimes rooms have long names and need to be broken into multiple lines. Sometimes you want to move the tag at a certain scale and/or abbreviate the name and/or show the name or number only.

Bathroom fixtures. Vanity cabinets can be bought down to 15", and sometimes we use them that small. The sink in the GS object protrudes from the cabinet at that size. Shouldn't the cabinet at least warn you about that? Or not accept the value? Or allow you to shrink the sink?

Stairmaker (It's object-driven, so I'll vent here about that too). Where do I start..... You cannot do concrete stairs at all (no rounded nosings), you really cannot do metal pan stairs (the sections are not quite right), the hand rails do not extend properly when you extend them the proper distance, the handrails do not show in plan, the arrows and text look terrible in plan, some stairs will not generate, even though their parameters are entered EXACTLY the way you want them built, and Archicad provides no guidance as to what the problem is..... I confess, I don't have my own stair objects..... yet.......

Lighting and mechanical symbols. Not only is the GS selection weak, they also do not offer any internal display options to make them look decent, like separate pen and line colors, movable text, or even text at all sometimes. Sorry, a bunch of lines drawn to look like an "S" is a little sub-par in my book of Graphic Standards in the day of true-type and open-type fonts.

Plumbing/gas riser symbols. Anyone heard of them? There were not any included in the GS library at all.

Section markers. Again, way too many parameters for an object that should look the same every time (back to my "Defaults" complaint). Never mind the lack of an interior elevation-looking section marker. I long ago created a section marker that just looks the way it should, and has maybe 5 parameters: Overriding text values, a scale factor to cram it in small areas, and whether to include the side "wings" or not for sections versus elevations.

Labels. Has anyone ever noticed that there is an option to "use symbol arrow" but none of the symbols actually have built-in arrows? Shouldn't that prompt read "use Archicad arrow?" I've long wondered that, and just recently started experimenting with stretchable hotspots inside a wall label, which pierces the wall by default, maybe even has a few extra arms to call out similar surrounding walls.... looks promising after a few hours of experimentation with the Label tool and its GDL values.

Roof labels. How is it that in the days of BIM, no one realized that you can place labels on a roof and have it call out the roof's slope/elevation/pitch? I even went so far as to make a single object, which is context sensitive to show an arrow with "4:12" in plan and a right triangle that says "12" on the horizontal edge and a "4" on the vertical edge.... and, you guessed it, the edges of the triangle are proportional to the pitch of the roof.

Cabinet labels. Why not make a label for kitchen cabinets that calls them out as "W1530" and make it look like a dimension and default above the cabinet for wall cabinets and below them for base cabinets?

Trimwork. DDGI's "EasyTrim" object is among the most briliiant things I ever saw (once I removed that "enter-profile size" restriction). Enter a trim profile, place it all over, make it slope, make it twist, and make it so you can change the profile!! How is is that a 10K GDL object dating back to AC 6.5 or so from a 3rd part developer has more power than a full add-on from Graphisoft?

OK, so I ran a little long here, and probably just boosted my word count beyond Karl, Matthew, and Djordje, but I think it was also a complete list of complaints I had with the Archicad library.... anyone want my reasons for creating our own Add-on? 😉

[rm]

Ok, now that I have heard from GS US Techsupport that GS Dev. is looking at the errors & inconsistencies I sent to them concerning their SE 9.0 Library Windows,

does anyone, or any window manufacturer have for sale a window library that can meet ALL the following criteria:

Window types:

WOOD
Double Hung
Casement
Sliding
Awning
Hopper
Fixed
Special Polygon
Circle
Oval

METAL
Double Hung
Casement
Sliding
Awning
Hopper
Fixed
Special Polygon
Circle
Oval

Material Selections Independent on both sides of the window for:
Sash
Frame
Sill / stool
Apron
Trim

PARAMETRICS:
Size vertical, width, depth
Trim: width, depth, profile each side of the window
Sill independent inside and out for thickness and extesion beyond the trim
Brick / stone sill / head and jamb
Masonry Veneer opening
Glass on / Glass Off
Mullions or Muttons with size and spacing seperate on top and bottom panes for Double Hung windows
Ganging of windows both vertical and Horizontal
Adjustable spacing between windows ganged together
Windows open or closed in 2D & 3D


Measurement / sizes
Imperial and Metric

I really can't believe we are on v9.0 of ArchiCAD and we just can't seem to have a complete window and door library that works solidly.....someone prove me wrong, I welcome it.

TIA

Maybe I should contact Fabrizio at Cigraph, they really know how to build solid add-ons for AC. And if you find something that doesn't work, Fabrizio makes sure it fixed ASAP.......that company sets the standard for all third party vendors.

[Anonymous]

Anyone ever been able to get this window right..? It's a Smartpart and I use it though it is quite wrong..