Archicad - Doesnt Do What It Says On The Tin!

[Anonymous]

I am so frustrated with Archicad generally not doing loads of things that I need or doing things that I dont need that I thought I would start off a thread to see what concerns other people have with Archicad. I dont know if Archcad v11 has these features (probably not) but here goes for a starter:

1. This is the most important - a confirmation dialogue to save before you exit a project. I dont know about anyone else but the fact that the DONT SAVE button is so much larger than the SAVE button has caused me to lose countless hours of work. Would it be so much to ask for a confirmation when you click DONT SAVE that asks you whether you really want to do this!! And vice versa.

2. Walls that actually join together correctly. I have major problems with cavity walls and even single block walls not connecting properly when there are three walls meeting especially if one is at an angle. Archicad should have this sorted by now. Its fundamental to the way the program works. At the moment we have to do all our walls black filled becuase they look rubbish otherwise what with all the lousy connections etc. This is terrible in a professional CAD package!!

3. Decent hatching. I really hate the hatching in Archicad - Autocad hatching is so much better. Why cant we flood fill an area with hatching? Why cant we select the hatch for walls etc and change it really easily ie scale, direction etc. Hatching is a nightmare in Archicad.

4. More tools for those of us who dont draw in 3d! Yes none of us here draw in 3d because we have found it doesnt actually work (unless you are a programmer and have loads of time spare). So where are all the tools for us lot who draw in only 2d such as OFFSET for example which was the single most useful tool in Autocad I ever used. To not have it in Archicad is criminal!! There are loads of other tools I could do with like being able to stretch boxes, etc but the most frustrating thing with AC 10 is the sheer number of slections you have to make to draw and alter lines etc. MOVE, COPY, STRETCH, ROTATE etc should all be reachable with one click!

5. Decent titlebox info - what is the point in having date associated with the project rather than each individual drawing? Come on Graphsoft think about these things! When I do a drawing I want to have the date on the ttile block when I actually did the drawing not when I started the job! Same goes for pretty much all the rest of the project info - its completely useless.

6. Zones that flood to boundary lines whether 3d or 2d. At the moment zones only flood out to walls but this is really dependant on having the whole drawings drawn in 3d which we dont - ie stairs are usually drawn in 2d becuase they dont work properly in 3d (ie it takes ages to get one to look right and the balustrades never link up correctly).

Thats all that I can think of for the moment but there is a lot more! I know this sounds like a rant but I think its about time Graphsoft got its act sorted in terms of getting a decent flexible product not just adding daft little flashy addons and calling it a new version. And just for the record to release a new version of the software and expect everyone to buy it a year after the previous one is pretty criminal in my book.

Personally I would not recommend anyone buys Archicad with problems in it like the ones above. I hate the software myself as you can probably tell, give me something straight forward like Autocad anytime!

[Aaron Bourgoin]

Nats,

From your previous posts, it sounds like you are using VectorWorks. Maybe the install CDs got swapped at the warehouse. Maybe if you consult a VW manual you'll find what you are after.

But seriously, of your issues with ArchiCAD run this deep, shouldn't you be speaking with the ArchiCAD representative?

[Karl Ottenstein]

Nats,

Re: your point about "don't save": does Microsoft Word (e.g.) prompt you with "Are you really, really sure?" when you say you want to exit without saving?!

In your defense, ArchiCAD is now so complex that it is really impossible to learn on one's own with any of the current resources out there, as Dwight noted in a recent post. It really takes a current user (your reseller?) sitting with you for a couple of hours minimum.

Karl

[Karl Ottenstein]

nats wrote:
Its not my fault I work in an office that is using Archicad and should by all rights be using Autocad. Yes you are right I banged on about this for ages when Archicad v10 came out and I guess the new release has done nothing to satisfy my problems with the software.

I have tried using 3d but just dont get anything worthwhile out of it elevations are rubbish, sections are nonsense, plan walls dont connect right and stairs/roofs are a nightmare.

Well, attitude and aptitude is (nearly) everything. I've scanned your posts since last July, where you note that you used AutoCAD for 10 years prior to ArchiCAD.

Your situation and emotion is quite common amongst draftspeople with a strong AutoCAD background who are reluctant to consider different working methods and are dragged out of their 2D AutoCAD 'comfort zone', kicking and screaming into BIM. It is the same with some programmers who learned language X and now find everything wrong with Y because it does not have the same features.

In this business - digital architecture / BIM - flexibility and life-long learning is the key to a long career. An open, flexible attitude is everything in any tech-centric occupation. Holding on to old ideas and technology is a sure path to the unemployment line at some point in the future IMHO.

In October, you wrote this:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=72361#72361

nats wrote:
We work this way all of the time at the moment - just drawing walls and adding doors and windows and then drawing completely separate sections and elevs on different 'storeys'. Archicad works pretty much like AEC AutoCAD in this respect. Although Archicad v10 doesnt easily allow for this kind of flexibility (Archicad v9 was better is this respect) but it can be done if you think of storeys in the model just as you would do different drawings in AutoCAD. Its something Archicad need to address if they want to retain architects like us who have no intention of drawing in 3d.

I am still trying hard to learn ArchiCAD 3d modelling after 4 months of working with it and am still not even able to get a section generated out of the model nor an elevation that will look anywhere near accurate or even remotely sensible! I have heard others here say they can do it but for me its far quicker to draw in 2d when you 'need stuff out' rather than poncing about with a 3d model.

This is now 12 months of working in 2D rather than modeling. With any reasonable training, you would be producing live sections, ready to plot, the first week of usage. Once learned, you produce live sections faster than you can possibly produce them in 2D...and you eliminate issues of errors/omissions and much more, decreasing your employer's liability and increasing your productivity.

This is just unbelievable, but it suggests that your employer has cheaped out and not hired a trainer to get your firm up to speed. I feel your frustration...but I put the blaim firmly at the feet of the principals of your firm, not on ArchiCAD itself, for putting you in an untenable position. Show them this post if you want. If they belly up funds to train you and others, go into the training with an open attitude and you will be amazed at what you and the firm can accomplish. If you remain antagonistic, then the firm might as well either get rid of the software or you.

Karl

[Anonymous]

Hi Nats,

You sound as if you are really struggling at the moment. It is incredibly frustrating when you haven't got the hang of a piece of software and you have no-one to help you. You can feel very much out of your depth when you are forced to try to be productive by your bosses.

I also fully appreciate that ArchiCAD is a complex program. It has to do many things at once and satisfy everybody, whatever the project or country. Like anything that is complicated you need to be taught how to use it effectively. You can’t pick it up dry from just 'playing' with it.

Take when you learnt to drive a car, for example. I bet you didn't just jump in and expect to know all the rules, techniques and skills immediately. You take your time, do the theory, and practice with someone who knows how to do it.

From your statement about your struggle to produce a simple pdf document, with the greatest respect, I guess your practice consists mainly of 'experienced' staff who perhaps do not use or understand computers fully enough. My advice to you is, if you personally don't want to lead or promote the change to 3d, is to get your bosses to employ an enthusiastic student fresh from Uni. The average graduate, even if they hadn't used the program before, would easily pick it up in a couple of weeks.

They would also be fully computer literate and could show you how to do things you wouldn't believe could be so easy. After a few weeks of having someone point you and your colleagues in the right direction, select a small handful of people to get some professional training including the student. This core group can then help the rest get up to speed. (Applecore and Bite are the two UK resellers and trainers.)

Once a week spend an evening having a help group with some of your colleagues. Go through the training DVDs and books together, learn tips and tricks from each other. You may even get paid to do so!! Assign the most skilled person to lead your conversion to 3d in the office and give them the task of establishing and maintaining office templates and standards. The productivity increase will greatly outweigh the cost of the training. Don’t forget your bosses were happy to pay nearly £2500 per copy of the software. Spending a few thousand more getting someone in who really knows what they are doing is nothing!!

Trust me, once you 'get' ArchiCAD, you will be addicted. It is amazingly satisfying spinning around and viewing your building from every possible angle before it is even built! A fully co-ordinated set of drawings that remain accurate even if you change something is a joy to behold. You will not believe that you thought that pushing 2d lines around was the best way to describe a three-dimensional structure.

You sound like you want to learn otherwise you wouldn’t be posting on here. Talk to the resellers yourself. Find out about the different training options. Speak to your bosses - tell them what you need to do to get productive. If you’re still not convinced, have a friendly chat with someone who uses the software professionally already. Maybe visit their practice and have a look at the workflow involved.

Lastly CALM DOWN!!! I promise you don’t need to be an IT expert or a programmer to be productive!! Once you know what you’re doing it’s actually quite fun!

Hope that is helpful to you!

Pete.

[Anonymous]

TomWaltz wrote:

nats wrote:
Offset by the way is not available - only for polylines, not normal lines, so its pretty much another useless feature ie I have yet to find a reason for it. Offsetting single lines on the other hand (ie as in Autocad) would be immensely useful as it frees you from having to use a skewed grid all the time or endlessly dragging copies etc.

Yes, it is available. Try looking for "offset" in your user manual PDF. MAN, are you insistent on not learning! You can offset ANYTHING, walls, lines, fills... anything that is linear or polygonal in nature. The sequence is a little different from Autocad, but it works really well. It's not just the "offset" button on the Pet Palette. It's also a button on the Control Palette and the Standard Toolbar. Try learning something. You might like it,

If you look at the multiply command available right from the pet pallette (works on lines) you'll find that it does even better than autocad offset if you want more than just one copy of something - choose the offset, or the total distance to be evenly divided or other options.

It's actually a good example of how Autocad is really efficent at quick, but "dumb" 2D drawings while Archicad requires a little more thought up front, but it pays off afterwards. BTW, as an autocad user until exactly one week ago, I appreciate some of the frustration in trying to find the equivilent 2D commands, but so far I have found useful "intelligent" alternatives.

[owen]

nats wrote:
Hello, Im an architect here, I do drawings and design buildings, I dont know 3d modelling, and if I had the time I would learn 3d Autocad & 3dmax or alternatively Sketchup for quick renders - but definitely not Archicad!! When will this sink in??

Welcome to the profession, although i think you have been at it for a while now. I think you will find most of the guys on here are also architects - they just happen to know how to use a particular tool of their profession. You know AutoCAD (2D). We know ArchiCAD (3D).

nats wrote:
I would very much like to hear how you would manage to do these things as I disagree with you really - they are not available unless you are willing to learn programming and we are not (we are simple architects not IT specialists, just getting a PDF drawing plotted is often at the limit of our knowledge).

I just dont think 3d is the way to go and I know Ive said this before. I think (and so do others here) that 3d in architectural cad is just a 'fad' that will last a few years. It just doesnt work where you have architects who cannot programme rather than it specialists. Perahps for very large firms or single practitioners it may work but for most firms I see 3d being completely irrelevant.

Well as you know i would strongly disagree with you on this - and so does Autodesk actually, why else do you think they bought Revit?.

In my experience (8 years) nearly everyone i have worked with has found ArchiCAD very easy to pick up. The tools are all there in the Graphical User Interface - you don't NEED to know any programming. There are a few things you can do with GDL which will help people be even more productive, but you don't NEED to know it.

Having said that, essentially what you are saying is that architects shouldn't have to worry about knowing how to use complex CAD programs to do their job. Many offices run like this and that is fine - the architects just sketch, markup and manage - draftspeople do all the CAD work. Its what they know and they are generally very very efficient at it. Perhaps your office should take this approach - as it stands they appear to be wasting everyones time and a lot of their own money getting staff to do things they have no training nor aptitude for.

On the other hand we have found it very productive if most of the architects in the office are capable ArchiCAD users - modelling the building gives you a really, really good understanding of how it all goes together, much better than your consultants who still insist on drawing in 2D (Common conversation - oh you mean THAT beam! We'll just run the duct under it. Oh, so a 1.5m ceiling is too low for you? Hmm ok well we could...)

Peter wrote:
Trust me, once you 'get' ArchiCAD ... You will not believe that you thought that pushing 2d lines around was the best way to describe a three-dimensional structure.

In fact you will think it is a bit like using a chisel and stone tablet when there is a whiteboard and marker in the room.

[Anonymous]

Well I am aware it is like I am preaching a false religion to a devout follower here. And what should I expect as most people like myself wouldnt even know this board exists never mind how to post on it!

Although having said that I am quite an advanced computer user myself. I even play computer games etc in my free time. Ive been involved in computers since the ZX81 and CAD since Autocad R12 including Microstation - so theres nothing about computers that scares me. Even 3d cad doesnt 'scare me' it just doesnt seem to work IMO.

I admit I am perhaps a little stuck in my ways being quite good at 2d drafting. But my main problem is Archicad just doesnt inspire me to want to get into 3d. Perhaps another 3d program would be better but unfortunately I am stuck with it in a wholly 2d drafting environment (I dont know why other than a boss thought it was a good idea at the time) and there is no likely chance this will ever change with my present firm.

The main problem with it to me seems to be that the generated drawings in my opinion, from the limited knowledge I have, are just pretty useless without a load of 2d drafting over them which makes them kind of pointless doesnt it? I look at a building with projecting terracotta rainscreen cladding etc and for the life of me cant even begin to understand how I would ever do that in ArchiCAD 3d.

There are two of us here who have actually tried doing 3d models at home and gave up pretty quickly. We just found them enourmously slow to create and the resulting visuals and sections rubbish. Plus it seems without addons with vanilla Archicad is impossible to get a decent design out of it that looks anywhere near convincing unless you are doing a 'brick box'.

And the fact there are no books or walkthroughs on how to do a typical complex design doesnt help at all either. Its almost as if Graphsoft are not bothered who takes on the software or not. I would have thought with such a complex piece of software there would be a decent easy to read book on it at the very least. Ive seen all the various online tutorials showing new features etc etc and they are all pretty useless in that they dont relate to an actual sensible architectural project. Even the one that shows how to build a building in several steps shows sections that are unrealistically simplistic and constructions that are just plainly unrealistic. I would love to see a tutorial or walkthrough showing how to construct a steel framed building with rainscreen cladding and concrete beam and block floors for instance!

I suppose this is what I was hoping to get from all you experts here - either where to go to learn all this stuff properly, or confirmation that r11 corrects all the lousy parts of v10 regarding connections, stairs, generated drawings etc (but this doesnt sound the case from other posts here).

So other than the typical responses I seem to get like 'Archicad is great because....' how does one manage to actually get decent drawings done in this software? And why cant they seem to get away from walls and slabs that obviously dont work, it seems to me, and start using simple blocks that can be rotated and moved around freely etc and interchanged. And when will they start producing libraries that actually contain things you need like realistic balustrades, handrails that actually connect. And when will they have slabs with screeds that actually work correctly in section with wall junctions?

Because as far as I can see none of these work properly and if I cant draw simple things like wall junctions properly without 'workarounds' why would I want to even try to get further into the software? Its just all a bit crazy to me!!

[TomWaltz]

nats wrote:
I suppose this is what I was hoping to get from all you experts here - either where to go to learn all this stuff properly, or confirmation that r11 corrects all the lousy parts of v10 regarding connections, stairs, generated drawings etc (but this doesnt sound the case from other posts here).

I might be going out on a limb here, but you will probably find that direct questions (like "How do I get ______ to do what I need?" or "How do I set up ______ to get ________ result?") will get better results than blanket complaints about something not working.

[Aaron Bourgoin]

Well I am aware it is like I am preaching a false religion to a devout follower here. And what should I expect as most people like myself wouldnt even know this board exists never mind how to post on it!

This board exists and works exceptionally well because a few earnest adepts respond to earnest, well phrased questions. A community has developed out of this spirit of dialogue between the neophyte and the truly professional.

Although having said that I am quite an advanced computer user myself. I even play computer games etc in my free time. Ive been involved in computers since the ZX81 and CAD since Autocad R12
including Microstation - so theres nothing about computers that scares me. Even 3d cad doesnt 'scare me' it just doesnt seem to work IMO.

The last time ArchiCAD shipped in a tin was back in the early nineties. It was called ArchiCAD 4.55. I would deduce from your particular turn of phrase(s) that 2D CAD in the form of AutoCAD 12 has probably not advanced beyond your needs and that you might be better off with a copy of that running on DOS.

In my experience those who have difficulty with ArchiCAD are the ones truly stuck in the belief that they are drawing something. ArchiCAD is a documentation engine and when its properly configured will reduce a very large number of administrative issues associated with the artifacts we call drawings.

The second most common problem with persons trying to latch on to ArchiCAD is the insistence of projecting or channeling it through the lens of another piece of software. In your case this appears to be AutoCAD. Lately I've been encountering people who brazenly attach the moniker of "ArchiCAD Champion" to their resumes, but when looked at more closely are really using VectorWorks. VectorWorks or AutoCAD - it really doesn't matter which - are tools for drawing a building. The 'how-tos', the 'workarounds', the day-to-day bump and grind of using them is focused on making drawings of the thing and not the thing itself.

Using ArchiCAD is much more akin to being on a construction site, or a building site. In order to use the tool you really need to be able to see the work in your mind's eye, to think like a photographer, to think like a builder, to inhabit the space and build. Even if you only creat abstract projects as design exercises, the answers, the revelations, the insights and epiphanies come to you in built form. Got a problem? Cognize it, visualize it as a builder would or better yet, as your Granny might navigate her way from the whatever-you-Brits-call-the Living Room to the whatever-you-Brits-call-the Kitchen.

Don't liberate yourself from the drawing, but understand that there is no single drawing that communicates everything it must in order for something to get built. There is a big difference between documentation and drawing.

I admit I am perhaps a little stuck in my ways being quite good at 2d drafting. But my main problem is Archicad just doesnt inspire me to want to get into 3d. Perhaps another 3d program would be better but unfortunately I am stuck with it in a wholly 2d drafting environment (I dont know why other than a boss thought it was a good idea at the time) and there is no likely chance this will ever change with my present firm.

Get you and your boss to the the Orcutt/Winslow web cast straight away. Understand that you are part of an organization and that while you might have different perspectives on the enterprise you both have to have a full-time commitment to it. Here is the link: http://www.graphisoftus.com/owp_event.html

If, after hearing Paul Winslow speak about why ArchiCAD is deployed in their firm, you still don't get it, well, I don't know what to say. Winslow is not a hands-on user, but he understand BIM and the bottom line. Maybe you should jump on a plane straight away and head for the desert. With all the religious analogy in your writing maybe you are a closet anchorite. Winslow's office is very handy to a very big expanse of desert out there in Arizona.

The main problem with it to me seems to be that the generated drawings in my opinion, from the limited knowledge I have, are just pretty useless without a load of 2d drafting over them which makes them kind of pointless doesnt it? I look at a building with projecting terracotta rainscreen cladding etc and for the life of me cant even begin to understand how I would ever do that in ArchiCAD 3d.

Go and build something - something you can put together in your back plot over a weekend and look at the problem again after. Stop drawing. Pick up a hammer and a saw, use them for a few days and then have go with ArchiCAD again.

There are two of us here who have actually tried doing 3d models at home and gave up pretty quickly. We just found them enormously slow to create and the resulting visuals and sections rubbish. Plus it seems without add-ons with vanilla Archicad is impossible to get a decent design out of it that looks anywhere near convincing unless you are doing a 'brick box'.

Twice I have had the great good fortune to meet people who built masonry walls in ArchiCAD, brick by brick. The first was an utter twit and was sacked from his job when his employers found out about it. He went on to make films, rather good ones.

The second was a building science guy who decided that he should create a concrete block in GDL. cf. http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=51490&highlight=perreault#51490

And the fact there are no books or walkthroughs on how to do a typical complex design doesnt help at all either. Its almost as if Graphsoft are not bothered who takes on the software or not. I would have thought with such a complex piece of software there would be a decent easy to read book on it at the very least. Ive seen all the various online tutorials showing new features etc etc and they are all pretty useless in that they dont relate to an actual sensible architectural project. Even the one that shows how to build a building in several steps shows sections that are unrealistically simplistic and constructions that are just plainly unrealistic. I would love to see a tutorial or walkthrough showing how to construct a steel framed building with rainscreen cladding and concrete beam and block floors for instance!

-------------------! SHHHHH! Shut Up and listen to those you have asked for help. Respect them and learn from them. Shut Up and Think for Yourself.

I suppose this is what I was hoping to get from all you experts here - either where to go to learn all this stuff properly, or confirmation that r11 corrects all the lousy parts of v10 regarding connections, stairs, generated drawings etc (but this doesnt sound the case from other posts here).

When you can snatch the pebble that is 4.55, you might be ready to tackle v11.

So other than the typical responses I seem to get like 'Archicad is great because....' how does one manage to actually get decent drawings done in this software? And why cant they seem to get away from walls and slabs that obviously dont work, it seems to me, and start using simple blocks that can be rotated and moved around freely etc and interchanged. And when will they start producing libraries that actually contain things you need like realistic balustrades, handrails that actually connect. And when will they have slabs with screeds that actually work correctly in section with wall junctions?

----------------------! perhaps you might rent the Monty Python DVD containing the Eric Idle sketch about Anne Elk and her theory on dinosaurs.

Because as far as I can see none of these work properly and if I cant draw simple things like wall junctions properly without 'workarounds' why would I want to even try to get further into the software? Its just all a bit crazy to me!!

BUT SIR, YOU DON'T SEE. ANYTHING. SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP IN THE FORM OF A REAL PERSON VISITING YOU AT YOUR OFFICE LOOKING AT YOUR PROJECTS. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE ONE ON ONE CONVERSATION BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE BECAUSE AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO STOP TALKING AND LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY, TOO!.

[Anonymous]

C'mon.....you guys have wasted way to much time on Nats. I also remember his posts from last year and it should be a huge red flag that if he hasn't gotten it by now, he is either unwilling, incapable or both!

I would strongly encourage him to continue to use AutoCAD for as long as he is able....right up to the time when he is obsolete! I find it difficult to believe that he doesn't possess enough knowledge of construction systems to appreciate the overwhelming value of BIM and instead is right at home in the 2D drafting world. Is Nats really an architect or is he what I would euphemistically call a "production technician".

Stop wasting time with this guy. He doesn't get it.

Gary Bley
Portland, OR USA