Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

[Anonymous]

Hello
I use both VWA and Archicad ,I guess from a production and construction
point of view VWA is much more efficient and streamlined for Design ,Data and analysis not so much for BIM.Its 2d is well intergrated with 3D.Both processes are separated for a reason.You see when I need to only sketch in 2d I may not wish to start on a complete model???The world of BIM is not as rosey as you may think?Take it from me we have to build projects from properly constructed working Drawing not Models (BIM)

[Rob]

Dear BDC,

point of view VWA is much more efficient and streamlined for Design ,Data and analysis not so much for BIM

I am quite surprised your attitude towards BIM in the design stage. At our office all design architects have to use ArchiCAD to define and recognise all potential flaws of their design in 3D at the very beginning!

Both processes are separated for a reason.

I would be pretty much worried about how much time you are spending on checking of your drawings consistency (plan/section/elevation).

You see when I need to only sketch in 2d I may not wish to start on a complete model???

Honestly mate, I have been with CADs for almost 14 years but 2D sketching in CAD does not seem to me like 'efficient' approach how to present your first ideas. I am using a clutch pencil and this is not for nostalgic reasons...

[Anonymous]

Hello
I use both 2D and 3D at the design stage to analyse design and data,
Thats the problem how do you get data from a clutch pencil.
Do you have to complete the model before you realise your mistakes?As a builder I have to retify the problem on site cause by poor documentation thru BIM.Seriously,The process should be flexible and intuiative and flows back and forth from 2D and 3D including data.Thats a concept that alot of Architects havent got a handle on,sorry to say.My opion has change on BIM.( User since AC5)You should try building for a living you wouldnt survive on BIM alone .

[Rob]

I use both 2D and 3D at the design stage to analyse design and data

You see when I need to only sketch in 2d I may not wish to start on a complete model???

Now, you've got me completely confused.

What do you mean by 'completing" the model to realise your mistakes? I think your mistakes should be sorted by the model completion, shouldn't they?
Secondly I do not understand how does the BIM platform collide with poor documentation? You can produce poor documentation on any platform with any CAD, it is simply lack of skills and/or negligence or whatever, but I would not say it is a 'feature' of any BIM application. Is this your point or did I misunderstand?

[Karl Ottenstein]

BDC wrote:
As a builder I have to retify the problem on site cause by poor documentation thru BIM... You should try building for a living you wouldnt survive on BIM alone .

Huh?

Competent people make buildable drawings...the Virtual Building (tm) only expedites this process in competent hands. In untrained hands, one has what one gets. It is the user, not the paradigm that produces buildable drawings... but perhaps you are talking about something else, and could be more explicit about what you feel is the failing of the BIM process? Are you saying that you are LESS efficient by modeling a project (properly) in ArchiCAD? Or you are somehow less accurate or the drawings are less buildable? Confused about your point, since thousands of us produce clear, buildable drawings all the time, including other builders on this list...

Your comments are most welcome for discussion here (although I'm not sure why or how this is in the Revit 6 thread since you didn't mention Revit). I'm not jumping on your comments because we seem to disagree ... but because I can't tell what it is you're trying to say.

Karl

[Anonymous]

Now, you've got me completely confused.

Let me try to enlighten you,Im sorry your so far away otherwise I would show you, what virtual construction and data should be like.I beleive Architects and Builders QS & Consultants should share Data & drawings
this is not possible thru Archcad currently?

What do you mean by 'completing" the model to realise your mistakes?

Someimes we dont want to expend resources on a model when a 2D sketch or data would surfice,What is it that you dont understand about this?.

I think your mistakes should be sorted by the model completion, shouldn't they?

The 3D model is important But no more important than other areas
You should be able to iron out mistakes at any Stage 2D 3D or Data
within the same program.

Secondly I do not understand how does the BIM platform collide??? with poor documentation? You can produce poor documentation on any platform with any CAD,

BIM makes you do, what it wants to do,it should be the other way around.Yes, poor documentation can be produced in any program
Ive seem many drawings/data where information has been automated incorrectly and the program wasnt flexible enough to allow the designer to rectify it?
The problem with BIM is one of Diminishing returns in regards to programing/flexibility/design/data.

[Rob]

I just can not see your point in this discussion. Firstly, we are in REVIT 6 topic (as Karl has mentioned above).
Secondly, you do not seem to be an Archicad user, and if so, with all respect, what have you been doing all that time? It is a bit expensive toy to have...
We are an office with 35 people, working on really big projects and let me say we ARE producing quality documentation and faster by roughly 25% than in the past with 2D or semi3D solutions such as DataCad or Autocad, which we had been using.
We have been talking to people after transition to Archicad and they did not simply want to go back to the 2D platform. We are using autocad just for old projects (originally started in autocad) to finish them off but that's all...

BIM makes you do what it wants you to do,it should be the other way around

Mate, you are soooo wrong here...

It seems to me that you do not understand the BIM idea AT ALL.

[Anonymous]

Rob wrote:
We have been talking to people after transition to Archicad and they did not simply want to go back to the 2D platform. Mate, you are soooo wrong here...

It seems to me that you do not understand the BIM idea AT ALL.

I think you have missed the point.Its not a question of going back to 2D.But one of data intergration( 2D and 3D),you should stick to your cliutch pencil and then send that sketch to the builder and engineer for comments ,get the gist

[Djordje]

Whoa!

First, it is obvious that some bad experience has taken place somewhere?

Second, whatever the software, do remind yourself time and again that the software does nothing. People do. So, the best (always arguable) software in professionally unskilled and software untrained hands, will produce a mess.

Thirdly, IMHO the Virtual Building is the only system of software implementation that allows for good construction documents IF the person(s) using it do the thing properly.

The discussion positions here are not so opposed as it may look; I am of the belief that Virtual Building modeling at current software/hardware ratio is warraneted down to 1:50 or 1:25 scale; all that you normally would show on the drawings beyond that (1:20 or larger scale) should not be physically modeled, and belongs in the Detail tool realm (Patch, composites) - shortly, 2D.

I agree that in the building process it is often easier to sketch the thing on the site - heck, did it myself yesterday - or fax off a hand sketch or a quick 2D detail, but make SURE that at a near future you do include it in the file, as there is such a thing as As Built set, right?

Some clarification of the positions would not hurt ...

[stefan]

Strange things happening. Posts that receive new names, cookies that got eaten.

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FWIW, I did work with VectorWorks for 2,5 years and it is a powerfull drafting application and a usable (but limited) 3D-modeller, but it doesn't do what ArchiCAD can do with the Virtual Building.

The coordination provided with the BIM approach beats any other approach hands down. Unless all you want to do is visualisation & presentations & gaming

I do not understand what this thread is about...