!Restored: Success = getting new customers

[Anonymous]

I saw some documents to compare between Revit and AC.
I study Revit from own website.
It is just copy from AC!!

I used to work with AC (and very satisfied, and like many friends from AC-forum).
As AC-user I hope, AC must be better than Revit for Architects.

I have not used Revit, but just seen from Website.
The web-site from Revit is so nice, that I must believe, Revit should be better than AC.

I like to know your opinions and also opinions from GS.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Krippahl,

Revit and AutoCAD are two different applications. Revit-9 is very similar to ArchiCAD 10; it is a BIM and 3D ready. Just like ArchiCAD it has limited sketching and crappy rendering. Just like ArchiCAD, you can compensate via SketchUP and C4D.

On your estimates for long term licenses, your licence never expires. You can run the application for as long as you want, with no need for phone service and yearly updates. Of course, if you want customer support of that type, you have to pay it as an extra, which is true for both Autodesk and Graphisoft. Besides, you do not get yearly upgrades anyway; AC-9 has been around for years...

Given that the products are very similar, and I am not interested in religious wars, my discriminant reduces to the cost of licencing without extra services. For Revit-9, until October 18th, this cost is 1100$ (I have a recent version of AutoCAD, so I can upgrade at that price). For ArchiCAD-10, this cost is in excess of 4000$...

Now, let see the problem from the standpoint of the makers. Autodesk knows that money is made by selling large quantities at a lower price. Graphisoft still has problems with that. If you sell apples, and have a limited stock, I understand your concern about getting the costs back and then some profit. However, a program does not have a limited stock. The maker can copy it unlimited times, and sell it by market strategy. In this period Autodesk is hitting the market with an aggressive 60% off the retail price. By comparison, Graphisoft is sleeping. This means that Autodesk will keep leading the market in terms of number of users, and more clients means a sweet base for present and future profits. This politics is so successful, that allows Autodesk to have enough cash to acquire other companies. Have you seen their range of products? Graphisoft keeps worring about running out of cash? Autodesk sells for less, for a limited time, and broadens its client base. Graphisoft sleeps, while it should seek for new clients. This is the gory point.

PS:
Click on "Getting to know Revit Building" in the movie below:

http://download.autodesk.com/global/revitbuilding/ADesk_IO51_OL/ADesk.51.html

[Anonymous]

jdk

If I knew I was talking to a salesperson, I would not have mentioned money
Nevertheless, let me get some things straight:

On your estimates for long term licenses, your licence never expires
No, that is why included subscribtion fees.

Besides, you do not get yearly upgrades anyway; AC-9 has been around for years...
No, there is a 10 version out for half a year now. Besides, I do not think a yearly upgrade is such a hot thing, and am not the only one. One study points to more than 50% CAD users in favor of a 4 year upgrade period.
Revit went from 3 to 9 in 6 years, which is crazy, and upgrade yearly. Unfortunately, Graphisoft will be aiming at that also...


I am not interested in religious wars
Like I said, I did not know money issues where considered a religion by you, but hey, live and let live.

my discriminant reduces to the cost of licencing without extra services
Likewise. I was not talking extras, only subscribtion that keeps your software alive, that allows you to have all the version upgrades. Nothing more.

Autodesk knows that money is made by selling large quantities at a lower price.
That's a hooter. It´s the first time I see 'Autodesk' and lower price' in the same sentence.

This means that Autodesk will keep leading the market in terms of number of users
This is news for me. From my sources (I can dig em up) Autodesks owns 15.000 BIM licenses (after 6 years of having Revit in the market) and Graphisoft 150.000.

This politics is so successful, that allows Autodesk to have enough cash to acquire other companies.
Your point being, you should choose the software you are going to use in the next ten years, 8 hours a day, building the foundations of your business on it, on the presupposition that it´s developer has a LOT of cash. Thats a nice one. I will start to eat only at MacDonalds then.

[Anonymous]

>From my sources (I can dig em up) Autodesks owns 15.000 BIM licenses (after 6 years of having Revit in the market) and Graphisoft 150.000.

Good point. I give you that. As ArchiCAD invented BIM, all of its clients count as BIM licences. Autodesk is the market leader for AutoCAD, but AutoCAD is not BIM, which leads to the above numbers. Revit is a recent acquisition of Autodesk, and its licences are not that many, possibly because Revit is the attempt to emulate ArchiCAD; early versions of Revit were bad, mostly a work in progress, but Revit-9 is a full blown application similar to ArchiCAD.

>>I am not interested in religious wars
>Like I said, I did not know money issues where considered a religion by you, but hey, live and let live.

I was not referring to money. I was referring to the Autodesk vs Graphisoft religion, very much like Microsoft vs Apple. It is clearly the case that each church has its followers. My approach is to look at the facts, first and foremost. Those who compare ArchiCAD-10 with Revit-1.0, albeit implicitly, simply do not know what they are talking about.

[Anonymous]

jdk wrote:
Revit is a recent acquisition of Autodesk, and its licences are not that many, possibly because Revit is the attempt to emulateArchiCAD

I do not think 6 years, in the IT market, can be seen as 'recent'.
See what happened to Sketchup, in less time, just to mention one example.

If you think about it, 15.000 Revit licenses worldwide is pretty lame, considering they have 6 years of Autodesk funding for R&D and advertisement, more so if it is true this is such a super good product, better by far than it´s competition.

I would submit another explanation for Revit being such a wimp, saleswise:
Autodesk is just not pushing this product, because they do not want to.
They are happy with the money they make with AutoCAD, and will continue to milk it as long as they can. Having Revit is just a PR gimmick, to be able to tell their costumers "Hey, we got BIM, no need to go to any other company" because they know most designers won´t use it anyway...~

jdk wrote:
My approach is to look at the facts, first and foremost

No it is not. You where comparing prices, without taking into account the money you have to pay troughout your life for upgrades.
I was just introducing the upgrade price (via subscribtion) into the equation, which is the only honest way to do it (after all, when you buy a car you look at it's price but also at how much you will spend in gas).
And, on this mathematical base of calculus (no religion there) you get a $15 per project surcost for ArchiCAD over Revit, IF you are a AutoCAD user. This proves you should not take price into account.

jdk wrote:
Those who compare ArchiCAD-10 with Revit-1.0, albeit implicitly, simply do not know what they are talking about.

If you look closely, you will see I have not made ONE mention on the products themselves, only on the cost of aquiring and maintaining licenses and on the profile of their developers.

I know next of nothing about Revit, and have to assume it is as good as ArchiCAD.

My main comparison is not over something subjective, like "goodness" of software, but on the objective money issue. Autodesk want's to sell this idea that going BIM on Revit saves you money, I say that it saves you $15 per project. This mat you can not deny, it is not open to interpretation (btw, 5 projects per year is a very conservative estimate).

[Mats_Knutsson]

jdk wrote:
Revit and AutoCAD are two different applications. Revit-9 is very similar to ArchiCAD 10; it is a BIM and 3D ready.

Duh, Archicad and Revit both have kind of soft "this-looks-really-easy" interface...under the hood they're NOT that similar at all.

[Djordje]

Hmmm ...

I am not so sure that you pay for Archicad support. Maybe in the US.

Around here, we have been told that the upgrade of Revit can be done ONLY through the subsribtion, and that the access to support Web site (saw it, worse than free ArchicadWiki) is only possible if you are a subscriber.

I am not kicking Revit, and everyone knows that I think it is good to have competition. I am kicking Autodesk, who is "pushing" BIM, giving you at the same time AutoCAD that you will revert to at the first problem. Been there, did not do that. Many did, and Archicad was to blame - of course! - not lazy people that could not get out of the plane (as defined by three points ...) into the space.

Do your maths again, man ... owning and maintaining Archicad license is definitely cheaper, and more user friendly.

[Anonymous]

Krippahl wrote:

This means that Autodesk will keep leading the market in terms of number of users
This is news for me. From my sources (I can dig em up) Autodesks owns 15.000 BIM licenses (after 6 years of having Revit in the market) and Graphisoft 150.000.

These discussions are great. At risk of sounding biased, I prefer facts to rumors. The latest sources I see state that 15.000 new commercial seats of Revit were installed in the last QUARTER. At that rate they will outstrip Archicad in a 2 and a half years assuming they had no seats installed at the beginning of the year.
But to be realistic, none of those seats are current ArchiCAD users (in my opinion). Autodesk is trying to flood their current customer base with the software to keep them from thinking about moving to a different manufacturer... and it seems to be working.
By the way, I like the faster release schedule, in theory, it will hopefully force Graphisoft to address wishlist items faster.

j
Marketwatch.com link

[Anonymous]

A followup in the "General Wishes >>> aggressive pricing" forum.

[Scott Davis]

I've noticed some opinions in posts here about the "size" of the Revit user base. Here are some facts about Revit sales and the number of seats:

"Over 100,000 Architects and Designers Worldwide Choose Autodesk Revit Building to Realize Their Ide...

"The Revit family of products led 3D growth again this quarter. Revit revenue increased 96 percent compared to the second quarter of fiscal 2006. Autodesk shipped more than 15,000 commercial seats of Revit in the quarter." LINK

[Anonymous]

Scott, thank you for the links. The numbers are changing, as Autodesk is pushing hard with the upgrades to Revit; they sell both autocad and revit in one bundle, thus raising the figure for Revit and pushing BIM into their market.