Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I work for a small residential firm and we were advised to upgrade to v11 for the added curved profile tools, but now that v12 is on the horizon, my boss is wondering whether we should wait for it to come out before upgrading our v10. We currently use AutoDesk2007 but I am ready to change now to ArchiCad. We have had ArchiCad v10 in a box on the shelf for almost a year now. It is mocking me silently as I continue to use AutoCad.

Should we:
1. Upgrade to v11 now and get started or,
2. Wait for v12

What improvements will v12 have over v11 and exactly when is it coming out? I thank you all for your help.

[Anonymous]

Thomas wrote:
But there are national differences.

Yes - this is probably part of my complaint. This is the first time I've upgraded in the UK and this is where I've had to pay higher upgrade fees as well as being told I have all these 'benefits'. I think it's the way the resellers here work and make it seem like it's a GS stipulation! Also, it doesn't seem right that I cannot choose which of 2 resellers I'd like to support - I'm told that geographically I have to follow this arbitrary division through the country and I happen to live in one reseller's zone and not the other. This doesn't make sense to me. Why shouldn't I choose the one I prefer?

In my country, subscriptions are offered as 24 months minimum, which is more to the point.

Hm - mine's 12 months so I might as well just get the upgrade instead - if I could.

I can also choose to get it without the on-line support from the distributor.

If I could (and paid the usual price instead of being forced into the ONLY price) then I would, and there wouldn't be complaints.

What you perhaps could do is influence your reseller to re-package.

That makes sense. Thanks for the suggestion - I'll try, we'll see how that goes...

[Laura Yanoviak]

gorilla_monsoon wrote:
One question that popped up based on reading these posts: Is the upgrade from 10 to 12 the same cost as an upgrade from 9 to 12? We have two versions in the office. Similarly, would the cost be the same if I upgraded my 10 to 11 as it would be if I waited and upgraded the 10 to 12 this spring?

gorilla -- don't let yourself become too confused by the current conversation. Check with your reseller: if you upgrade to AC11 now (via the subscription), the upgrade to AC12 may very well be included (i.e. free). It will cost more to jump to 12 from 9 than from 10 (a couple of hundred bucks per seat), but only your reseller can quote you a price.

[Steve Jepson]

Laura points out what I have already said about the advantage for the version 10 user to subscribe now and perhaps get version 12 for free.
Check it out first. They may very well have a way to keep that from happening.

I think they deliberately waited for the last release to make sure all of the subscriptions ran out that would have gotten two upgrades out of the initial subscription.

Very good point Thomas about the competition having a mandatory subscription. If I understand it right, they cannot use the product without having a current "subscription". ? I don't know.

I do prefer ArchiCAD's method to that, but then I prefer fair business practice to a poke in the eye with a sharp stick too.

There are many things about ArchiCAD's subscription program that are not clear to me.

For example, when I "subscribe" does that mean I have paid for the rights to use the software only for the subscription period? Vs. If I "upgrade", am I paying a onetime fee to use that version of the software for life?

If this were the case, then there is a legitimate reason to pay more for the "upgrade" than for the "subscription".

This is an important distinction to me. It is not clear how ArchiCAD differentiates between the two types of licensing agreements, if they even do, or why they use the term "subscription" for an annual upgrade.

The idea that the special tech support, key insurance, or whatever they are offering now, constitutes a "subscription" seems ridiculous to me.

If they want to sell subscriptions, it ought to be for longer than the same schedule they have for upgrades. Make them available for 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, what ever. ( see that it is 2 years in Sweden) And attach some incentives of actual value! Mostly a significant discount!

How about some rewards for users based on the number of years they have continuously maintained a licence to use ArchiCAD? Or based on the number of upgrades they have already purchased?

Should a person annually upgrade or annually subscribe?

I would like to know why some choose one way or the other.

[Piotr Dobrowolski]

Hi,
My 2 cents:

IMHO the forcing subscription is adopting the Autode$k-like marketing&licensing , which I do not like (not saying the word HATE which would be more acurate)
I hope there will not be such way of upgrading AC here in Poland. There are no subscriptions here - and seeing the current yearly publishing cycle there is no point in subscriptions (at least the one-year ones).

Best Regards,
Piotr

[Thomas Holm]

Maybe this discussion is getting out of hand, at least for me. The idea that this global company should wait for all subscriptions to run out before a major release is simply bs. I was a betatester, I know the release plan was set months before, and I know that they struggled to keep it despite that we would have wanted to see a couple of more bugs squashed before release. ( a lot of them were, but they didn't have time to tell us and let us check. Some were not) And I also know there were (and are) sh*tloads of subscriptions that are, and were, and have been, running all the time.

I don't know the details of what is offered in each country. I'm not a reseller, just an ordinary user.

If you want to know the details of what's offered at your place, and the fine print of the business agreements, you have to talk to your reseller.

I don't think it's bad business practice to sell what costs the manufacturer less for a lower price. That is what Graphisoft does with the subscriptions. The various resellers might package it in various ways.

There is no forced subscription with Archicad, unlike with Autodesk/Autocad/Revit and Bentley/Microstation.

And you don't get orphaned if you don't upgrade Archicad within a couple of years like you do if you buy Autocad Lite (which is supposed to sell without subscription - I know this because our structural engineer who's sitting across the room got a mob letter from Autodesk this Spring - he had to buy a new AutocadLite version or else he'd lose any upgrade rebates next time. He caved in and bought. The new version is sitting on his shelf!)

[Steve Jepson]

I have read what Thomas has said and I appreciate his point of view.
He is making some good points that are changing my point of view (some).

I think a person from a free-market capitalist economy will view this subscription process differently than someone from a socialist economy. (I do not mean Sweden)

I think the premiss that Graphisoft can and will offer the product to us for less if they can collect some of the funds for research and development through a subscription process first is purely theoretical.

Subscription timing bs? Probably is.

However, we have the chance to see if it happens again.

The guy with v10 can subscribe now and receive the v11 upgrade now.
His subscription is good for 12 months. In this case he will receive the 12 upgrade as well since the upgrades are released annually. The last release was in June or July. Even if they are a month or two late with the release his subscription is still going to be current. There is no reason why he should not expect to get two upgrades during his subscription period.

What do you think the chances are the he will get two upgrades for the price of one subscription?

If he does, how do you suppose those who had a subscription for 12 months and never got any upgrades during that time will understand this?

Will everyone be smart to always subscribe only every other year so they can always get two upgrades for the price of one upgrade?


There are more problems than you can shake a stick at when you try to have annual subscriptions and annual upgrades, pretending that it is different.

I predict a change.

Either they will make more rules for subscriptions, or they will renig on the annual upgrades since it is a bad idea on so many other levels anyway.

Time will tell.

[Piotr Dobrowolski]

Thomas wrote:
There is no forced subscription with Archicad, unlike with Autodesk/Autocad/Revit and Bentley/Microstation.

And such a practice is the big advantage of Archicad!!!

My post was a reaction on the post saying that users in GB are kind of forced to buy a subscription (maybe there was a misunderstanding) and if something like that hapaned - such practice should be called by name - a very bad thing....

Best Regards,
Piotr

[Thomas Holm]

Steve wrote:
...
This is socialist-globalist marketing....

Steve, Graphisoft may have Hungarian roots. But it is a capitalist profit-generating (should be) company, owned from what was West Germany, working in a free, capitalist and highly competitive global market. With a hungry, dominant and monopolistic market leader. I have no illusions about this. Graphisoft needs to seem more friendly and altruistic than the market leader because it's an advantage in the market.

They offer subscriptions cheaper than upgrades because due to even lower costs it gives them a higher profit, of course! This is pure capitalism and has nothing to do with socialism.

I'm just happy that their position in the market makes them give me an offer that I like, and that their product also happens to be superior. All of this might change, and probably will, because of capitalist market forces, and nothing else. Forget socialism here - it won't happen!

This is my last post in this thread.

[Steve Jepson]

Am I to understand that the "subscription" price is lower than the price for the "upgrade" because Graphisoft is passing on a savings of some kind, realized from the pay in advance "subscriptions" ?

Ok... if that is true, I am happy to pay for a subscription instead of an upgrade.

Also, if that is true, then the higher price for the upgrade would not be a penalty.

Now what about the difference in license agreements?

Is there any difference in a license agreement for the 12 month subscription and a license agreement for an upgrade?

[Anonymous]

When ac11 came out, I too thought that I would receive an upgrade for a discounted price. When the subscription fee was also required, it didn't feel fair. It's not really about the price than it is the promise being made to us.


First, I'm reasonably happy with archicad and want to do my fair part so that it is a profitable product for both the software company and we the buyers/customers/inverstors. I'm sure it's a delicate balance just as in our own profession.

But, the subscription idea smacks like a credit card offer. The "value added reseller" (from my experience) who is suppose to sell this subscription service doesn't have any more value to add. Perhaps if there were more value in the subscription service, I'd be so grateful that this thread wouldn't be needed. Instead, my subscription felt like an empty promise.

I hope the new owners will be careful to avoid even the appearance of a gimmick from themselves as well as their resellers.