Quantity Take-offs in AC vs the new Constructor 2005

[Karl Ottenstein]

In the Constructor 2005 topic ("Other Products"), Richard Morrison posted a message that I'm going to respond to here. The frustration that GS has a new product that addresses the BOM/estimating need should be voiced there perhaps, but I thought this new thread could discuss whether there is a demand for better documentation, examples, and some workshops.

Original post is here:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=22972#22972

Richard wrote:
I can't realistically, at this point, even produce a lumber list for a house. I realize that the capability is potentially there -- if I'm willing to take the time to get everything set up perfectly and figure out how to use the most impenetrable database scheme and interface I've ever encountered. And where is the help to do this? Any easy-to-follow tutorials? Oh, they throw some prefab List Schemes at us, but I only know of (none personally) one or two people who have figured out how to use them. I've even looked for local AC trainers who could teach the Calculate menu effectively and can't. This says to me that something is fundamentally wrong.

I agree, Richard. And, while the new Calculate Guide PDF is better than before, it still does not demonstrate to the user how to get a lumber take-off (for example) like you want ... something long promised as a feature of AC. In fact, every example at the end of the Calculate Guide which is done using list schemes, can in fact be accomplished with the Interactive Scheduler. Not one example is given that combines appropriate properties and components to produce at least a partial BOM. Users have complained about this for many years on ac-talk.

There are sample property scripts that generate components for framed walls, with items quite unusual for US construction such as mahogany baseboards, etc. These scripts do illustrate what is involved in producing an appropriate takeoff for a wall mass, but they are not explained anywhere and so only detective work and some knowledge of programming (GDL anyway) lets the rare person penetrate the system.

To the extent that Estimator 2005 is designed for large projects, we are still left with AC having to compete with other software on the basic BOM front ... and so one of us will have to start offering workshops and teaching materials on it if GS won't.

I can certainly fly down there or you can take a vacation here (winter=ski, spring/fall=hike, summer=hike, boat, water ski, fish, etc). Is there a demand for this kind of class, or 1-on-1?

It's hard enough getting a decent door or window schedule to appear. This OUGHT to be one of the easiest and most basic procedures in the program. That Karl Ottenstein is able to give a whole workshop seminar on it is quite telling.

Well, it could be telling that I'm a slow teacher. But, actually in the 1.5 hour workshop at ACUWest, we blitzed through the I.S. which is a very powerful tool. I think that the 1.5 hours was enough for most to produce good door/window schedules ... but a hands-on workshop would have taken at least 4 hours for people to try things to reinforce the concepts. Customization = power = steeper learning curve = longer teaching time IMHO.

So I find it very sad to hear that rather than fix what they've got so architects can actually USE it, we hear that development funds are going to produce an "enhanced" version that will supposedly do what we've all been told AC is supposed to be capable of doing already.

I'm reserving judgement (and emotion!) until I see what Estimator 2005 does and how it works... but I don't disagree.

Karl

[Anonymous]

Dear Karl

At its present state IS although good enough stambles on some native AC problems.
Time managment and Estimation is posible in AC but its almost unusable and extremely difficult to maintain. (defining a money unit and manipulating property scripts)

What i was expecting as a simple step (i was expecting it for AC9) is better propeties handling and a first step in cost estimation using a database of prices in parallel with properties.

List schemes are good if you sit and learn the scripting langruage.
If it was really powerfull then i would spare the time but its not.

In my opinion,and judging from the feature step from AC8 to AC9 i expect the product to fullfill most of my needs in V13-14.
This is i think what big firms thought, and asked for smthg better NOW.
And now it was GS turn to reply.
To get a good analog from sports, i will remind you of Sergey Bumbka and now of Isnibageva. They could jumb NOW 20-30 points more, but that way they would loose money so they improved the record cm by cm.
That is what GS reminds me.
Its not illogical and even I would follow the same tactics BUT not at that extend.

Karl you rightly said that you expect to first see then judge.
Correct. I have a feeling we will have to wait a lot and we may not see Constructor though distributors. Just intuition. Do not have a rational explanation. (or can explain in pm if you like )

[Karl Ottenstein]

oreopoulos wrote:
At its present state IS although good enough stambles on some native AC problems.
Time managment and Estimation is posible in AC but its almost unusable and extremely difficult to maintain. (defining a money unit and manipulating property scripts)

What i was expecting as a simple step (i was expecting it for AC9) is better propeties handling and a first step in cost estimation using a database of prices in parallel with properties.

I agree. And of course much more is needed ... primarily connectivity to other data sources and a better interface. A 3rd party could do some of this of course...

Karl you rightly said that you expect to first see then judge.
Correct. I have a feeling we will have to wait a lot and we may not see Constructor though distributors. Just intuition.

I have the same expectations: I suspect that Constructor/Estimator 2005 will require a dedicated sales force directly from GS HQ, or at least GSUS in the US. But, I do expect that we will see complete documentation and more online after the release date and that may answer our questions.

Karl

[Anonymous]

Karl wrote:
But, I do expect that we will see complete documentation and more online after the release date and that may answer our questions.
Karl

Do you know when the release date is?