What would you pay for speed

[Anonymous]

Here is a general question
if you could get a rendering package that is capable of real time rendering
(in other words it will produce renderings equal to the best C4D rendering
in a rate of about 15 frames per second) while all materials, shaders, radiosity, HDRI sttings ETC is done in real time so you could see the changes instantly
and the whole thing will work on you're regular work station

How much would you pay for it?

[Dwight]

See?

[Anonymous]

I don't think I ought to have to pay *anything* extra, or buy any additional software. I've already paid thousands of dollars for Archicad. Top quality rendering software ought to be built in. Rendering is a critical aspect of the work we do.

Wendy

What you say is true. Most of us bought AC as a complete suite and we expected it to do everything for us (and I believe that this is what Grphisoft where aiming at, when they conceived of AC at the beginning)
But intentions are not enough, and all though the presentation tools are there, they are not satisfying for most of us
I guess it is a little bit like buying a boom box VS buying a full pledged Hi Fi system (in which every component will be a stand alone I.E Pre amp, Power Amp, Equalizer, Etc)
and so AC is the equivalent of a boom box (a good one, but still a boom box) and you want a Hi Fi.
perhaps sperate tools for modeling, drafting and presentation are the way to go (as long as they are seamless).
In any case what I understand from what you are saying; is that you are not happy with the AC rendering tools, but still, you will not invest in a sperate tool for presentation that will alleviate your current pain.
Did I understand you correctly?

[Anonymous]

Tamir wrote:
What you say is true. Most of us bought AC as a complete suite and we expected it to do everything for us (and I believe that this is what Grphisoft where aiming at, when they conceived of AC at the beginning)
But intentions are not enough, and all though the presentation tools are there, they are not satisfying for most of us

True, but I think we ought to be able to *expect* high end performance from a high end product - especially one that claims to have this functionality.

I'm not saying AC doesn't have this yet, just that in general, I think that high end, fast, accurate rendering *ought* to just be an automatic part of high end products.

Of course, some programs do this better than others because of a variety of factors, so part of what drives purchase decisions is how well various features that one considers essential are implemented, with *any* CAD program.

In any case what I understand from what you are saying; is that you are not happy with the AC rendering tools, but still, you will not invest in a sperate tool for presentation that will alleviate your current pain.
Did I understand you correctly?

Well, yes and no. I'm not good enough at all this yet to feel like I've come anywhere near exhausting AC's capabilities, or to understand when a particular result is caused by the software vs my own skills, so I can't really say that I'm unhappy with AC's rendering tools, especially now with v10. I was responding in a more generic manner to what I thought was a more generic question.

But no, I would *not* invest in a separate tool right now anyways, I don't think. I can't afford to, especially with trying to keep the basic product and add-ons up to date. I also just simply don't have the time to keep learning new products and keeping up on their changing versions. If I should find myself with a client who requires higher end rendering skills than I am capable of providing with the tools I have at hand without spending all of my time trying to learn how to produce them, well, Dwight's available for hire the last time I checked <g>.

For school projects? I'll keep plugging away learning what I can as I go, and produce the best results my skills and the tools I already have are capable of, but I am not going to kill myself for utter perfection when no one else is footing the bill. Unfortunately, it is frowned upon in academia to hire out any part of your projects, or I'd probably farm out things like physical model-building and some CAD modelling, rendering, and documentation tasks anyways, if I could swing the cost.

Wendy

[Anonymous]

Although, I also think AC should have good rendering engine, I still think much more important part of AC is this one that produce Construction Documents (in every stage - from SD to ASI and RFI). If you will reasonably think how much time you spend on producing documents and rendering, you will probably find out why. Lets not forget that even packages that are designed to produce just images and animation, don't have top notch rendering systems (max, maya, etc). If you need better quality you have to buy external rendering systems (Vray, Renderman, etc...). Lets face it. In small company no one is expecting hiperior quality (no one wants to pay for it) in big companies they have specialized team that is doing just it or they hire other company to make it for them.

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to remind you that this topic was presented in "Other Products" for a reason.
(Other products that can possibly compliment ArchiCAD)
I've never done a project where renderings were not part of package as well as a complete CD'S (since I've been working for a design build firm)
but that is exactly the point.
Most of us don't invest the time to produce good presentations/renderings simply because we don't have it, and not because we don't want to.
and that is because no matter which rendering packages we will use they are still SLOW. They are slow to render and are complicated to set up, so usually we will render a frame more than once to achieve good results, which means lot's and lot's of time.

And so, let's illustrate this in a metaphor.
We are all going to around in a race truck armed with the latest bicycles, some are a little bit better than others but essentially all bicycles are the same, and now lets say that we can replace our bicycles with motorbikes and shave 90% of our lap time.
Is that worth something? considering it can be done.

[Anonymous]

Tamir wrote:

And so, let's illustrate this in a metaphor.
We are all going to around in a race truck armed with the latest bicycles, some are a little bit better than others but essentially all bicycles are the same, and now lets say that we can replace our bicycles with motorbikes and shave 90% of our lap time.
Is that worth something? considering it can be done.

Well, sure - theoretically, at least. Provided that a) it doesn't cost a bloody fortune and b) the learning curve isn't so steep that the time for just learning how to do it and keep it updated as necessary substitutes for the current rendering time, at least for too long.

I'm just tired of having to use so many different products already, just to produce whatever I'm already able to get out. Every time AC is updated, I also have to update a whole slew of add-ons, and at some point, I have to update other programs like Photoshop/Adobe CS and formZ as well, just to maintain file format compatibility for the times that I need it. This is not only extremely expensive but very time-consuming, just to *install* all the new versions, never mind learning how to use them and their new features. And that's before I start trying to make sure the installations on *two* computers are the same so I can move the drawing back and forth as required without trouble.

Besides, I'm trying to do *interior* design, not graphic design or graphic arts, so how much perfection in rendering do I really need? Yes, admittedly, part of what drove me into AC in the first place was the promise of being able to render things accurately enough that I can visualize what different materials and furniture selections will actually look like, so it's a tough call. Really being able to see what things will look like, and how different materials will make a space feel *does* require a fairly high degree of photorealism.

But I'm already more of a slave to my tools than I want to be. Having to add yet *another* program in order to be able to do what I want to do, particularly when it ought to already be built in to the base product, is a very frustrating thing to have to contemplate. I just spend more time learning and upgrading software (and system maintenance) than I do actually working already, I think, or at least it often seems like it.

Sometimes I wish I'd just spent more time developing my hand rendering skills, and am half tempted now to just forget about it on the computer and just produce hidden line drawings and render them manually.

Perhaps once I have some paying clients, I'll feel differently, but right now, it's all outgo financially, and school deadlines can't be pushed back just to accommodate learning endless new software as I go.

Wendy

[Anonymous]

So it seems as if when we can let our imagination fly (in terms of our dream tool)
we are willing to consider the possibility of an investment both in terms of money and time
But since only two replies in direct answer to my question
1.) about $750
2.) if it is that good Thousands of $
where given
I would like to learn a bit more about what will the ultimate rendering engine should be like?
Can you let your imagination fly?

[Anonymous]

Tamir wrote:
I would like to learn a bit more about what will the ultimate rendering engine should be like?
Can you let your imagination fly?

1. It should be as intuitive and easy to use as a paintbrush, for starters

2. It should include accurate photometric data for light fixtures, and radiosity or a better technology that would render finishes and lighting just like it would really look with those fixtures and with the given sun angle.

3. It should allow for multiple finishes on each side of an object.

4. It should be possible to change the parameters of the applied texture on the fly, without having to stop and go to a whole different menu structure.

Wendy

[justdhruv]

hi tamir, thats a very interesting question you posed. I hope i don't offend any body here, but nobody has understood the spirit of the question. The question being posed, i feel, is the holy grail of rendering. I was introduced to 3D modelling and rendering in the year 1997. I was working on strata, and they had just released radiosity in release 2.1. I had thought to myself, when would computers be fast enough to do real time radiosity. It been almost a decade and we still aren't anywhere near, even realtime raytracing.

I am not aware of any technology available in the market or being developed which can offer that solution at any price point any time soon. It is also like asking "what would you pay for a flying car?". And i think saying "$25000" would be a very irreverent answer.

Coming back to you question. I think such a solution would be priceless. when it is finally available, production houses would gladly pay upwards of $25000 for it. But for me as an architect, i guess at this point of time i could pay around $5000 (for which i will have to take a finance) for a solution which gives me "Maxwell Render" (sice it supposedly does not have to much setup and is easy to use) type of rendering in real time.

[Anonymous]

Tamir

Seems to me you are talking about an Artlantis on steroids.

As a long time Artlantis user, I would love high end rendering in real time, taking 1/15 of a second on what now takes me over of 1 hour machine time.

I am perfectly happy with having a rendering dedicated software outside ArchiCAD.

AC I use for conceptualization, data management and technical drawings. Full fledged VB.

Artlantis I use for the pretty pictures, that help me (enourmosly) to sell my ideas.

Unfortunately, knowing how computers work, I believe the holy grail you are promising us is still some time in the future.

Our models are not simple semi-3d game models, but very complex and polygon heavy ones, with easily over one or two million polygons.

So, although I know for a fact we will have that kind of computing power in the future, my guess would be 5 to 10 years (more on the 10 years, but I am waiting to see what the cell fuss is all about).

Now, as I am allowed to dream a bit on new years eve, if you would have this dream software for me tomorrow, with ease of use as in artlantis, real time high end rendering on a regular pc, bugless, integrated with Archicad, I would probably be able to convince myself to depart with some $3000.

Happy 2007