Commercial Flush Mount Toilets / Grab bars

[rm]

Those of us in the US working on high use commercial bathrooms, know that virtually all installed toilets are wall mounted, sometimes floor mounted, flush valve toilets.

Rarely would an architect spec a tank type toilet in a high use commercial application. If they did, they would be asking for trouble. Given Graphisoft's thrust in trying to focus on large firm / large projects, how on is it we can't have a wall mounted flush valve, ADA compliant toilet library part with required grab bars?!

Library part ADA 24 cannot be modeled in 3D and drawn in 2D as a wall mounted toilet, showing no. Conversely if you use WC 24 where you can show it as wall mounted, there is no option for adding the usual 2 or 3 grab rails.

WHEN is GS going to take updating the entire library to year 2021 standards instead of 1990 standards. Absolutely inexcusable for the neglect the US library has had for decades now.

[Kristian Bursell]

I agree that these options should be available, however there are other options if you look at some of the manufacturers content.
Several years ago I build a great of the GWA Bathroom range for Australia, which contains a good selection of their toilet suites, including wall mounted and flush valve toilets. The library is about 6 years old but still relevant. You can download it from the Specifiy.Caroma website built for industry professional: https://specify.caroma.com.au/bim-library-landing/archicad#archicad

There is a list of the key aspects of the library near the bottom of the above page. However, I can assure the quality is of the highest standard because I built it myself. If you have never seen any of my Archicad objects then I am sure others on this forum can assure you of the quality of what I produce, generally being second to none... except perhaps with interfaces.

I hope this library helps

[rm]

Kristian wrote:
I agree that these options should be available, however there are other options if you look at some of the manufacturers content.
Several years ago I build a great of the GWA Bathroom range for Australia, which contains a good selection of their toilet suites, including wall mounted and flush valve toilets. The library is about 6 years old but still relevant. You can download it from the Specifiy.Caroma website built for industry professional: https://specify.caroma.com.au/bim-library-landing/archicad#archicad


I hope this library helps

Kristian -

Thank you so much for forwarding the link to your fine work. But in doing so, you illustrate loudly my point. If you as an individual could script products mimicking the brands in your demographic, Graphisoft surely could do the same OR they should hire outside talent like you to do so OR they should help manufacturers produce their libraries. Correct me if I am wrong, but we are calling ArchiCAD, "BIM" software, yes?

In the US Kohler and American Standard are the most prolific brands for bathroom fixtures. It's as if Graphisoft makes no effort to partner with these companies to bring their libraries to the US market. There is no excuse for the completely outdated US library. Ask Revit users if they have any problems getting virtually any product objects formatted for Revit. I don't want to digress into AC vs Revit, but on this issue, it's not even close who is ahead of the game.

Again, something as simple as ADA standard grab bars with a Flush Mount toilet absolutely should be in the library.....it ridiculous that its not.

[Richard Morrison]

Personally, I am of the opinion that if objects are dimensionally parametric, I neither want nor need manufacturers' libraries. These will almost always end up out of date in a year or two. Who is going to be responsible for keeping these updated? I remember when we had an Andersen Door/Window library. Totally inflexible and mostly useless.

In the case of the commercial toilet/grab bar combo, it would be helpful if the ADA version were as parametric as the standard Toilet 24 version. But really, how long does it take to put in a separate toilet and grab bars, and group them for copying? (Less time than it takes to post this.) And if you really, really want the same libraries as Revit, you can always import .RFA files or .SKP files just fine.

[Kristian Bursell]

I think Graphisoft left the manufacturers content up to BIMObject as a partner.
When I was last in Budapest in 2019 (the last good year, things were looking great back then), I was specifically asked about this aspect. From memory they were just starting to look into the issues and needs.

The fact is, the idea of pumping out models for all manufactures products is a large task and the end result is an isolated proprietary file that is tedious to update, therefore it will be neglected until it is no longer workable in the latest version of AC, then becomes digital waste. I don't think GS has done anything in this realm because no self respecting coder would create one-off content... and that is why I don't do it anymore either, instead I developed the proper method for using generic and product specific content out of a single GDL object.

The method is called "Component Catalogues" and we have it in several of our tools, as many here would know. Unfortunately, I have not developed toilet suites yet, hence I directed you to the Caroma Library.

The difficulty in the fixture realm for Graphisoft is covering everything, hence they leave it in the hands of the community and the likes of BIMObject, after setting the standard. There is loads of Revit content because any 9 year old could build it; I learnt and delivered a suite of Revit content in 3 days. However, the content is rubbish, in that its dumb geometry (they don't know parametric) and large file sizes.

Basically what the rest of the world has to tolerate (even though they have a lot of it) is not sufficient for Archicad. Fortunately GDL has enabled me to create the perfect solution by building the most capable generic GDL object that can cover the geometric configurations of any product, and then by connecting the object to external catalogues containing the geometric and metadata description of product specific and custom configurations.

We need more users on these tool so the manufactures are motivated to add their catalogues. Once there are enough manufacturers on board, the tools funding will be covered and it will be free to all users.

So I have the solution *(just not toilets yet) and you can all have it for free... once we reach the funding requirement from manufacturers.

*We have the catalogue function in the following:
- Windows, Doors, Skylights, CW Panel
- Joinery
- Gutters, Fascia, Downpipes
- Basins - I currently have 4 firms who use this tool to replicate products, but they are small firms who have little sway with suppliers, or could not be bothered trying to get a response form the supplier when they replicated their product in less than 5 minutes anyway.
- Sinks
- working on taps and spouts ATM
- also started on lighting

Oh and for those who don't want use manufacturers content for geometry, I have set the MVO to control the geometric detail so you can switch between a generic simple representation and the detailed product geometry base on your deliverables. The import part of product specific content is it ensure the crucial elements such as plumbing connections are in the correct location so you can leverage more detailed data out of your model.

It would be great if GS would take over the development of these tools (or do the same thing) but for now I will do it alone because I think it is absolutely necessary. Fortunately I have enough customers (and some big ones) to keep me motivated, if not quite fed. If we received more support form the community (had just a few more subscribers) we could build intelligent objects at a prolific rate.

I hope with the knowledge of what we are doing, everyone can start to look at the content process in a different light, for what we have done, fundamentally, is enabled a placeholder methodology where your component can change seamlessly at any stage of the project through the associated catalogue of saved descriptions.

Sorry for the length, but there was a lot to say.

[rm]

Hey Kristian -

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Many good points. But in the case of the specific manufacturers I listed, Kohler and American Standard, rarely do they completely delete any of their product lines, which becomes useful for projects that require additions or renovations. Rather they typically do the opposite by adding to their lines, only removing products that are poor sellers in their catalog.

I didn't mean to suggest GS should model every product from every manufacturer. However, there are certain fundamental components that usually go in every building, certainly bathroom fixtures fall in that category. So let's surmise that GS has no budget to develop better libraries. Have we ever heard them talk about working with manufacturers to help them develop library parts for ArchiCAD?

Addressing the opinion of the previous poster that generic representation of parts is useful enough. Maybe in some cases, but most certainly not when you design for clients who insist on seeing realistic representations of project products like appliances, furnishings, lighting, cabinets, bathroom fixtures, and the like when we create near photo-realistic renderings for them. We actually get clients signed on because much of our competition is unwilling or incapable of delivering these services.

Sounds like you have some insight as to what's coming from GS regarding future libraries, hopefully, they will offer an updated and expanded breadth of products, specific to regions of the world.

[Kristian Bursell]

I am also of the opinion that the generic is not enough, perhaps it is for some practices and the deliverables they provide. However, you are proof that there are also those who require a lot more out of the model, and most of my clients are this way.

My thoughts are that if the potential is there and its beneficial then lets exploit it. Archicad objects can do everything that someone, like yourself, with high level demands requires. We have assigned the geometric LOD to Model View Options so that you can have a different LOD between different deliverable; the MVO for renders should be set high while for internal elevations at 1:100 it can be set to coarse (there is also a resolution control to fine tune the detail even further). This means you get the best of both worlds and it also means the speed of your Archicad file is also optimized.

Archicad is very capable and we exploit it to our advantage to provide more than what others can.

[Lingwisyer]

Slight tangent, but if you are doing photo-real, would you not be replacing many of the objects in your scenes with higher poly models at the time of rendering as to not murder your projects poly count? Or is that what you mean by near photo realistic in that you stick to lower but poly accurate models of your furnishings?



Ling.

[rm]

Lingwisyer wrote:
Slight tangent, but if you are doing photo-real, would you not be replacing many of the objects in your scenes with higher poly models at the time of rendering as to not murder your projects poly count? Or is that what you mean by near photo realistic in that you stick to lower but poly accurate models of your furnishings?



Ling.

Great questions Ling..... Yes & Yes

Attached is a rough draft pre post production.....this is what we typically shoot for.

[Lingwisyer]

In which case you would only need manufacturer digital rendering assets that can be dumb rather than parametric ArchiCAD objects with the AC objects themselves only needing to be dimensionally accurate with relevant anchors for substitution?

By the sounds of it, Kristian's catalogue system could be used for this? Then the manufacturer just provides a dumb 3D asset as well as the relevant dimensions in the required format? If so then we are just short on adoption...



Ling.

Edit - On Topic: I just had a look at the AC22 AUS disabled toilet and it has options for wall hung toilets and in-wall carriers... Not sure what makes it ADA compliant, but could you possibly import the object from the INT library?