ArchiCAD and Revit Evaluation Criteria

[Anonymous]

Greetings,

We're a mid-size architectural firm (50-75 people) located on the East Coast of the US specializing in commercial, educational, higher education, retail, and corporate markets. We've been using AutoCAD and ADT for quite some time now with SketchUp being used almost exclusively for all SD and DD imaging. We've come to the conclusion that these tools have out lived their usefulness.

We've started an evaluation process looking at both ArchiCAD and Revit. Our team (8 people) will be professionally trained by outside consultants so they can competently evaluating both tools.

We need suggestions on what type of information gets included in our evaluation criteria. Has anyone gone through this process with both programs? If so, can you give us any tips or directions on what we should be looking for? What are the current advantages and pitfalls to using either program?

Is ArchiCAD generally better than Revit?

Thanks I advance for any replies. We’ll keep everyone updated on our evaluation process.

mj2

[Anonymous]

Every of these softwares have its pros and cons. Maybe in Revit some paramatric objects can be done simpler than in AC but if this is so simple why in Revit Library every door size in every type is the separate family? I was attending advance Revit training and it was not very convincing. Dimension line cannot start at any point? What's this? You select element (wall, door etc) and you have to open it's properties window to find out what did you selected? I don't buy it. And back a little to GDL. You are of course aware that you can create Any form using any type of objects and just save it as GDL? In most cases you don't even have to know GDL. It's where you need advanced functions where GDL come handy. Tell me how to create family in Revit that can get data from other families external files, etc. Suddenly not that simple, or even maybe impossible. Don't get me wrong I like a lot of stuff in Revit, but it's UI is what kills me. I plain hate it. I open Wall Properties window and everything is so clogged that to find what I'm looking for I have to actually read everything. Wait a second actually there is just no UI. Just some text window.

[Bricklyne Clarence]

refs wrote:
My experience with both:

I have skipped ArchiCAD (and ADT) learned and choose REVIT because of one very important reason: simplicity!

In fact, since 1999, I worked around GIS technology, Bentley parametric technology (Microstation Triforma) and none of them corresponded my expectations. Just Revit!

REVIT principles seat on a well defined strategy which are well apprehended by the user once they start to use the program.

The elements are well structuralized in the following aspects:
- Model Elements;
- View Elements;
- Annotation Elements

Almost all of these elements are represented by "families", easily editable by any user with 3-4 months experience, like me, in contrast with GDL (ArchiCAD) users.

With REVIT, this organization is reflected in their "User Interface" which is quite simple.

I think with ArchiCAD these features aren't clear. Well, at least, I didn't understand them, and their interface it's not straight forward as it has too many icons and options.

With only 3-4 month's experience, using REVIT, I felt I could do things that "Gurus" ArchiCAD users (with eight years experience or more) couldn't do.
Have a look at the link: http://www.revitpt.com/forum/index.php?topic=289.25
(sorry, it's in portuguese)

The virtue is not in the user but in the program, believe it.

We can say that ArchiCAD does almost the same things, but with REVIT it's more intuitive, simpler and easier. I've tested both and I know what I'm talking about.

Another aspect, eventually the most important one: “Parametric Objects”.

With REVIT this is extremely easy with “families”; if I can do it … then everybody can 😉

At this moment, I fell I can do things with families that with GDL (ArchiCAD) I couldn't dream of, and I've more experience with ArchiCAD than with REVIT. In the attached file we can see the families and GDL interfaces. Please, compare them …

With REVIT I don't need to script the parametric objects, it just does it (draw it), with easy geometries and parameters … With ArchiCAD it’s like you see …

I hesitate to ask; why would you choose to use GDL scripting (in ArchiCAD)to try model a door or window that's simple enough to model using ArchiCAD's native modelling tools and SEO functions?

But then again, that's always the easiest target for Revit users when extolling the virtues of their program in comparison with ArchiCAD's supposed weaknesses ( - I believe that this is what is referred to as the Straw Man argument in Logic and Argumentation). Or at least for Revit users, who claim to know AC, but who really have clearly lacking or insufficient knowledge to make informed enough opinions about it. I have used ArchiCAD for over 8 years, and never once have I ever had to script a single object in GDL, - and in that that also, I have modeled some of the most unusual geometry and objects, with the tools available. I will grant the fact that for added parametricity and 'smartness' of created objects, GDL would likely come in handy - and something for which Graphisoft should seriously improve and upgrade in upcoming versions - but overall the claim that one can't do anything in ArchiCAD without GDL, is mostly baseless and says more about the claimant's unfamiliarity with the program than it does about ArchiCAD's shortcomings.


And if you seriously believe this:

"The virtue is not in the user but in the program, believe it."


.....then perhaps you're letting your program do more of your design and brainwork for you than it really should be doing - or at least, that should really be going on or happening between your ears instead of in front of your keyboard. The most important part of what goes into any design happens and sits between the chair and the computer, and not inside the computer itself.

It's not the tools that make the great masterpieces and works of art, but rather the artist and craftsman that wields them.

[Anonymous]

Every of these softwares have its pros and cons. Maybe in Revit some paramatric objects can be done simpler than in AC but if this is so simple why in Revit Library every door size in every type is the separate family?

It's not true. In Revit u can choose two types of parameters for the objects:
- Instance Parameters
Or
- Type Parameter

If u choose "Type Parameters" for "size" (dimensions), than u have an object that vary with Type. You can have different Types variation (how many you want) for the same parameter object (same Family). If you want, you can choose "Instance Parameters" for size objects … I don't see values in this, but you can do it in Revit.

Make sense (for me) this "hierarchical logic" to organize the parameters objects. I think u didn't understand the difference between "Instance Parameters/Type Parameter" in your advance Revit training. 😉, therefore you made this mistake.

I was attending advance Revit training and it was not very convincing. Dimension line cannot start at any point?

It's not true. U can choose Tab key to cycle to next element and select what u want.

You select element (wall, door etc) and you have to open it's properties window to find out what did you selected?

Wrong! The Element Properties it's not "to find out what did you selected". It's to make changes in the objects parameters. It's very clear. You select the object(s) and u choose:

-Edit/modify with geometric tools (copy, mirror, scale, delete, array, create similar, etc); or

-you can open Properties dialog box to made changes in their parametric tools (Material, types, Manufacture, etc.

Do u understand it now? 😉

I don't buy it.

Great! It's better for me . On less potential Revit competitor one 😉

And back a little to GDL. You are of course aware that you can create Any form using any type of objects and just save it as GDL? In most cases you don't even have to know GDL. It's where you need advanced functions where GDL come handy.

I cannot agree with you. If I work with ArchiCAD, I must know GDL in 1000%! If I choose for ArchiCAD BIM, Geometric Description Language (GDL) I must do my own parametric programming language. That's all! … It's like a Family for Revit.

I know in ArchiCAD you can create, model, draw or build the custom window (windows, doors, etc) with slabs (single slab!), walls and other tools so that the window is facing down on the ground, and then convert them for GDL objects. Let us be honest, these are NOT BIM tools. This is "wok around". This is a CAD tool.

I know too, In ArchiCAD we can use the extra ($$$) "ArchiGlazing" ($250), "Door & Window Builder" ($250) … In Revit, we can do all the things just with the Revit!

That's the difference!
In Revit, you can create parametric objects by duplicating System Family's Types; modelling In-Place Families (inside the project), or build Standard Families (independent parametric objects …with simplicity, accuracy and TRUE BIM tools!

If you want parametric objects (true BIM objects) in ArchiCAD you must work with GDL. We cannot run away to this. For me, ArchiCAD it's a hybrid of CAD/BIM. Instead of you thinking, I like the GDL Interface and me thinking that could be the future if Graphisoft/Nemetscheck wants to simplify it (more friendly).

Today, we want easy solutions and simple features. I like Revit for that. ArchiCAD continues to have much of CAD inheritance. The object is 3D, but the representation it's 2D. In Revit you (optionally) can do that 3D/2D connectivity, but these strategies have its pros and cons.

Tell me how to create family in Revit that can get data from other families external files, etc. Suddenly not that simple, or even maybe impossible.

I don't understand what you mean. In Revit we can build simple or complex/robust parametric families enhance families with advanced parameters, nested families with co-related parameters, formula, rotation parameters (door's opening), array count parameters, etc … easily! With 4 months in Revit, I can do it 😉

And don't forget: now we can run .NET API in Revit. (That's the Next step for me)

Well, let us practice.
I've done the simple example in attached, just with 3 month working (learning) with Revit modelling tools.

Please have a look at attached file and tell me:
We can do it in ArchiCAD without extra? … Yes ou No?
If you can do it in ArchiCAD, please show it to me and explain how …

That's why I've chosen Revit.
I cannot be dependent on which software makes or not

[Anonymous]

Bricklyne wrote:
... for Revit users, who claim to know AC, but who really have clearly lacking or insufficient knowledge to make informed enough opinions about it. I have used ArchiCAD for over 8 years, and never once have I ever had to script a single object in GDL, - and in that that also, I have modeled some of the most unusual geometry and objects, with the tools available.

This issue is dedicate to you.

I've been working with Revit during 4-5 months (since ~January/2007), and I can do things (see example attached) that with ArchiCAD I couldn't dream of. I’ve more experience (learning time) with AC ...

You have used ArchiCAD for over 8 years ... You can do it with AC?

[Dennis Lee]

I've tried revit and AC demos extensively prior to making my decision. For me, the criteria wasn't really about can this software do this or do that, but more along the lines of how efficient is this software for me to design, visualize, and document my next project. - and how much will I enjoy the process more using this software vs that.

I chose AC of course, and so far, I'm extremely happy about the decision, and I am astonished by the depth of AC - and the AC community. AC has been used by architects for over 20 years doing real buildings all over the world, by big / small firms on big / small projects. Can you imagine dealing w/ so many architects' needs for over 20 years and addressing their needs for that long? I'm sure there are always going to be more wishes, but I'm also sure that a whole lot of things got resolved along the way. That's why I believe Revit still has some ways to go before it can cater to the specific needs of all the different types of work / firms out there.

I think if you love Revit because it can make door families better (and also flying windows ), then I think that's great too, but I don't think that makes Revit a better BIM tool, let alone a better architectural tool.

[Anonymous]

I've tried Revit and AC extensively too. I knew AC, Triforma and ADT. I already had heard in Revit. We are working in a complex project, with non - conventional forms, unusual geometry (see examples below).

We had tried almost software (except Digital Design – Gehry Technologies) and the only one that shows it could convince (without extras) … was Revit. 😉

I am enthusiastic with Revit. It’s really amazing. My choice is made, and I desire no change.

[Anonymous]

... more example

refs wrote:
I've tried Revit and AC extensively too. I knew AC, Triforma and ADT. I already had heard in Revit. We are working in a complex project, with non - conventional forms, unusual geometry (see examples below).

We had tried almost software (except Digital Design – Gehry Technologies) and the only one that shows it could convince (without extras) … was Revit. 😉

I am enthusiastic with Revit. It’s really amazing. My choice is made, and I desire no change.

[__archiben]

refs wrote:
... more example

maybe you should consider using something like 3DS if you are designing themeparks?

~/archiben

[Rob]

refs, darling, now try to document your nice curvy rubbish lets say in a team of 6 people for full tender.
you will spend more time referencing and chopping and coordinating your original Revit file to allow for six different pair of hands than the actual production time spent for drawings in Archicad.
We have almost all files in teamwork mode (it's a nature of our jobs in the office) and this is THE major shit up of Revit when presented to us - handling big and multi-user projects is waaaay behind, not talking about linkage and cross-referencing between two different files.
I think Ben has a point - you can model all sorts of rubbish using much better software, the subtlety is we have to document and build it eventually and that's what puts your software closer to your heart when dealing with ugly clients, consultants and builders.

Love,
Rob

[Anonymous]

refs wrote:

Every of these softwares have its pros and cons. Maybe in Revit some paramatric objects can be done simpler than in AC but if this is so simple why in Revit Library every door size in every type is the separate family?

It's not true

What is not true? I'm talking about standard libraries that you have included in Revit (just checked). Yes you may edit it, but this change will effect all instances of that Door/Window, unless you will duplicate the family. And circa 7 doors and 7 windows as a standard? C'mon. No preview in properties window? C'mon. And loading separately every other window/door/object? C"MON. And all used door/window/object saved in the file with no way to remove it? ARE YOU KIDDIN' ME?

. In Revit u can choose two types of parameters for the objects:
- Instance Parameters
Or
- Type Parameter

If u choose "Type Parameters" for "size" (dimensions), than u have an object that vary with Type. You can have different Types variation (how many you want) for the same parameter object (same Family). If you want, you can choose "Instance Parameters" for size objects … I don't see values in this, but you can do it in Revit.

Make sense (for me) this "hierarchical logic" to organize the parameters objects. I think u didn't understand the difference between "Instance Parameters/Type Parameter" in your advance Revit training. 😉, therefore you made this mistake.

What kind of mistake again? I got it. It's simple. I'm just asking where are those beautiful libraries? Not in the standard package? Interesting. So I actually have to create my own library of Doors just because I want to use different trim size? For the time spent on creating that kind of nicely parametric library I probably could buy few more full licenses of AC. Even if the process is simple it takes time. With testing and troubleshooting couple of hours per door/window/object.

I was attending advance Revit training and it was not very convincing. Dimension line cannot start at any point?

It's not true. U can choose Tab key to cycle to next element and select what u want.

True, but if for example you will dimensions angled corner of the wall to next wall any change of that corner will pop-up error window (The References of the highlighted Dimension are no longer parallel.). And I have to hit Tab 3 times to get to the point - even if mouse is directly above it. But remember you HAVE TO be directly above it. You are just a bit to far - you can click Tab how many times you want. Imagine a wall that is a zig-zag. To dimension every point you have to click Tab 3 times. Very productive. Indeed.

You select element (wall, door etc) and you have to open it's properties window to find out what did you selected?

Wrong! The Element Properties it's not "to find out what did you selected". It's to make changes in the objects parameters. It's very clear. You select the object(s) and u choose:

-Edit/modify with geometric tools (copy, mirror, scale, delete, array, create similar, etc); or

-you can open Properties dialog box to made changes in their parametric tools (Material, types, Manufacture, etc.

Do u understand it now? 😉

Oh my. You solved my problem. Select the window and tell me what elevation it is on? Or select the column and tell me where is the top of the column (to make thing more interesting - according to USGS). Wait - you can't. You have to open Properties window. Do u understand it now? 😉

I don't buy it.

Great! It's better for me . On less potential Revit competitor one 😉

Revit competitor? I thought that we shall be competitors in Architecture. Oh yes - I have better set of Rotrings. Now I'm going to beat you.

And back a little to GDL. You are of course aware that you can create Any form using any type of objects and just save it as GDL? In most cases you don't even have to know GDL. It's where you need advanced functions where GDL come handy.

I cannot agree with you. If I work with ArchiCAD, I must know GDL in 1000%! If I choose for ArchiCAD BIM, Geometric Description Language (GDL) I must do my own parametric programming language. That's all! … It's like a Family for Revit.

Hmm. I really have a problem to understand what you want to say here.
1000%? I assume it was just a typo. The whole office I was working for previously knows nothing about GDL. And they don't use any add-ons to do their job. Who said that all object have to be parametric? If you are going to model kitchen cutting board - what kind of parameters you need.

I know in ArchiCAD you can create, model, draw or build the custom window (windows, doors, etc) with slabs (single slab!), walls and other tools so that the window is facing down on the ground, and then convert them for GDL objects. Let us be honest, these are NOT BIM tools. This is "wok around". This is a CAD tool.

Work around? Why? Because you decided it is not the Revit way it is not BIM. Let's be honest you make things up. That's how you make it in AC.

I know too, In ArchiCAD we can use the extra ($$$) "ArchiGlazing" ($250), "Door & Window Builder" ($250) … In Revit, we can do all the things just with the Revit!

Those are productivity tools. You can do everything without them, but they can save you time, and that's why they are valuable. I have never used any external add-on in my long adventure with AC.

That's the difference!
In Revit, you can create parametric objects by duplicating System Family's Types; modelling In-Place Families (inside the project), or build Standard Families (independent parametric objects …with simplicity, accuracy and TRUE BIM tools!

True BIM tools. Never heard of them. What are those? Yes some thing can be done simplier in Revit, but some things don't make a better software. Although I agree that making a parametric Objects in Revit is simplier.

If you want parametric objects (true BIM objects) in ArchiCAD you must work with GDL. We cannot run away to this. For me, ArchiCAD it's a hybrid of CAD/BIM. Instead of you thinking, I like the GDL Interface and me thinking that could be the future if Graphisoft/Nemetscheck wants to simplify it (more friendly).

I will repeat. Why you need on the daily basis parametric objects? Fortunately AC comes equipped with amazing library of parametric objects that covers majority of your needs. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about Revit. It's Library is very limited, and amazingly not very parametric (not BIM ?).

Today, we want easy solutions and simple features. I like Revit for that. ArchiCAD continues to have much of CAD inheritance. The object is 3D, but the representation it's 2D. In Revit you (optionally) can do that 3D/2D connectivity, but these strategies have its pros and cons.

AC as I see it was BIM from the beggining. I don't know what kind of CAD inheritance you are talking about. Don't you know that BIM is part of CAD (Computer Aided DESIGN) world?. The object is 3D but representation is 2D - I don't get it. How is it done in Revit? Is it sculpting building in clay as you go? No wait it actually shows it as a 2D representation of 3D information. So where is the difference? That sounds like some marketing materials from Autodesk. Telling people that knows squad about CAD/BIM/Computers lies about competition.

Tell me how to create family in Revit that can get data from other families external files, etc. Suddenly not that simple, or even maybe impossible.

I don't understand what you mean. In Revit we can build simple or complex/robust parametric families enhance families with advanced parameters, nested families with co-related parameters, formula, rotation parameters (door's opening), array count parameters, etc … easily! With 4 months in Revit, I can do it 😉

Imagine that you have a door that can have several door panel, handle, mulions, trims styles etc. within one object. It is using external objects that represents those styles and connects them together. You don't see those objects in regular library, because they are macros. But when you change the door width the panel, trins, handels etc. adjust automaticaly. And this is very simple sample.

And don't forget: now we can run .NET API in Revit. (That's the Next step for me)

So you actually want to write programs? It's so not BIM. C'mon.

Well, let us practice.
I've done the simple example in attached, just with 3 month working (learning) with Revit modeling tools.
Please have a look at attached file and tell me:
We can do it in ArchiCAD without extra? … Yes ou No?
If you can do it in ArchiCAD, please show it to me and explain how …

C'mon. You don't show here anything complicated here. I'm not going of course to spend time here to explain how to do this stuff. I will attach just the thing I have in my reach. All pure AC no getting into the GDL involved. Just creating few objects.

That's why I've chosen Revit.
I cannot be dependent on which software makes or not

Again. I don't get you here.