Why ArchiCAD instead of Revit (was ADT)?

[Anonymous]

Hope you don't mind a newbie question I began a thread over at the construction documentation forum about generating material take-offs in ArchiCad. My question evolved into a more general question of why should I switch from ADT to ArchiCad. Karl suggested this is a more appropriate forum for that question, so here it is. I welcome all responses.

Here is my background info. I am a designer in a small residential (mostly remodeling) design/build firm. I currently use SketchUp for preliminary 3D design and ADT for design development and construction docs. I do not produce material lists or take-offs. Once construction docs are done, the general contractor does material take-offs, builds the project on paper and creates his bid. I like the wall, door, window tools of ADT, but I still really use it as a 2D drafting program. All of my framing plans, sections, foundation, etc., are simply made up of 2D lines. I've never found ADT to be useful as a 3D design/modeling tool. The interface is just too cumbersome. I would be willing to switch over to ArchiCad if there were enough compelling reasons. I know the shortcomings of ADT and I like what I've seen so far of ArchiCad, but I'd like to hear everyone's own opinion and experiences using ArchiCad in a real world situation. Particularly when it comes to creating construction docs. Thanks in advance and Happy Thanksgiving!

{edit}

I suppose I should also include Revit in this question. Why choose ArchiCad over Revit? I am looking for serious pros and cons here so I can make an informed decision. Thanks.

[Karl Ottenstein]

Bill wrote:
Hi all,

I am a full time user of Revit, and I currently own and operate a design studio. ...allow me the opportunity to clear some air, as I am an invited guest.

Welcome, Bill!

Just spent 25 minutes over at the Zoog forums ... and found them pretty amusing. Beyond the fact that the people advertising themselves as previous ArchiCAD users clearly didn't know how to use ArchiCAD...it was very informative to see that Revit workarounds and tips/tricks are in the same flavor as ArchiCAD ones even if for different areas of the software. Rhyme of the day: clearly neither software is ideal, but both sets of users sure have zeal! 😉

My last demo version of Revit was 4.5, and I was drooling over many features that I wished were in ArchiCAD ... and also missing many that ArchiCAD has. The convergence will be very interesting if both firms and products survive.

I'd appreciate your throughts on one aspect of the Revit interface: at least with 4.5, I found that the long text scroll box of parameters for an object was painful to scroll through and modify compared to the visual/graphic/grouped dialogs we have in ArchiCAD. Had a very Microsoft feel to it. Are parameters still textual scrolling lists - and is that inconvenient when modifying a wall/etc (scrolling to find the field you want) ... or are there shortcuts to get to the parameter that you want quickly?

One other question. Revit 4.5 seemed to call something 'parametric' if it had parameters - which included things like a wall with height, width and length. While ArchiCAD has that same level of interaction, I guess we usually don't call those things parameters .... but refer more to library objects (GDL) when we talk about entities being parametric. GDL library parts, which "any" of us can create or modify, permit any level of parametric tailoring - provided the proper coding is in the object - for example (simplest level) tables that have a variety of leg choices, table top edge choices, perhaps an optional glass insert, varied shape of table and/or insert, etc. and then the usual size/material kinds of things - with different material choices for each element of the object. Can a Revit user create similarly parametric (and thus geometrically changing) objects?

Thanks, and again, welcome!
Karl

[Anonymous]

Hi Karl,

Thanks for the friendly welcome:).

Q1.

To me, the whole of the revit interface is clunky. I find it in the way, and get tired and anxious thumbing through the dialogs... But I've known some pretty ugly dudes that didn't let that keep them from being pretty sharp characters. Once the program is set up to your office standards, it's pretty much like any other good tool that gets customized to the individual environment, hence, productivity increases.

Q2.

Users of revit that I am associated with do not generally confuse parameters with parametrics. I understand revit's parametric change engine to specifically address issues such as wall changes in a view, updating the entire model and associated output, or more importantly, not, which I control directly, and am cognizant of when I know my program...However, to answer your question directly, your description of a GDL library objects sounds very, very familiar to me. Our library objects also act the same way;
parameter-metrically... or something like that:)

I have a little question; do allot of the Archicad faithful find themselves behind the screen of the MAC?

Also, if this topic is getting to far off, forgive me, and feel free to move it.

Thanks

[Djordje]

Bill wrote:
I am a full time user of Revit, and I currently own and operate a design studio. I belong to Zoog Design forums and came to this board at Djordje's invitation.

Welcome; I personally don't like the "my father is stronger than your father" comaprison of anything, and the worst thing you can do is to apply the system to software!

I think it is unfortunate that visible (to potential buyers), vocal individuals are spreading mis-information and fud about both programs, in both camps. Over at Zoog, there are and have been numerous threads with titles like "More Archicad Propaganda", etc. Likewise, here, in this thread, I see comments and speculation about Revit that are blatant untruth's.

You will find that people here are very open minded. Making your personal choice of the professional software does not mean that you should be blind to everyhting else.

So, rather than "attack the man," or attempt to discredit individuals statements, I would like to open myself up to yourvaluable questions in an attempt to create the mutual respect between the camps that Djordje refers to when he alludes that we are the only two true BIM products on the market and share a mutual vision.

Well, this is the truth - ArchiCAD fought long and hard battle for the appreciation of the concept. Revit's very existence proves that the concept is right.

Looking forward to your contributions!

[Djordje]

Bill wrote:
I have a little question; do allot of the Archicad faithful find themselves behind the screen of the MAC?

Quite a bit.

Also, if this topic is getting to far off, forgive me, and feel free to move it.

Don't worry, I can also delete it

[Anonymous]

Also spent a little time at Zoog, looks vaguely familiar doesnt it.

Couldnt quite believe this one

"Rendering - ArchiCad (IMHO) has a better rendering engine than Revit"

Revits rendering must be really awful.

[Anonymous]

Lennox wrote:
Also spent a little time at Zoog, looks vaguely familiar doesnt it.

Couldnt quite believe this one

"Rendering - ArchiCad (IMHO) has a better rendering engine than Revit"

Revits rendering must be really awful.

I found the rendering fairly good, but not to the level of AC at this time. I even have a reather poor one on the RUGI site. AS in a lot of programs, the ability to export and post improve is a learning task that I only hope to be able to achieve. On of the most positive elements of R is the live windows - that is a request that I have been reuesting for at least 6 or 7 years.

The biggest difficulty was the inability to do line work and drafting corrections on the model - this is a strength of AC. There are too many other items to expand on in the limits of the forum - maybe q and a ----

[Karl Ottenstein]

Bill wrote:
to me. Our library objects also act the same way;
parameter-metrically... or something like that:)

Thanks, Bill ... but I thought that there was no scripting in Revit, so that objects cannot have 'behavior' and reshape themselves (via mathematical forumlas). So that is possible now in 5 (or is 5.5 current)?

An example is our roof surfacer add-on. I saw on Zoog that a guy was trying to model a standing seam metal roof and was doing it with your window parts, using mullions for the seams, and then rotating the entirety on top of his roof.

One of our objects is a roof surfacer that has an option for standing seam - and the shape, spacing and height of the ribs can be specified. An ArchiCAD add-on maps this onto existing roofs, matching pitch and shape. If we want a different roof profile, we can modify the object and keep or modify the script (that specifies the rib repeat). But I gather a Revit user cannot create a similar smart part, based on the post about the guy using window mullions and the praise that it received for coming up with a creative solution...??

Regards,
Karl

[Djordje]

LewBishop wrote:

Lennox wrote:
Also spent a little time at Zoog, looks vaguely familiar doesnt it.

Couldnt quite believe this one

"Rendering - ArchiCad (IMHO) has a better rendering engine than Revit"

Revits rendering must be really awful.

I found the rendering fairly good, but not to the level of AC at this time. I even have a reather poor one on the RUGI site. AS in a lot of programs, the ability to export and post improve is a learning task that I only hope to be able to achieve.

This surprises me, as the original rendering engine was (still is? Revit users, info please!) AccuRender, ANYTHING but a bad renderer! Seems I saw somewhere on Zoog that a replacement with VIZ engine is in the pipeline (which sounds logical). Not sure how easy it would be to use?

On of the most positive elements of R is the live windows - that is a request that I have been reuesting for at least 6 or 7 years.

Yep, this is good - apart from the S/E changes being immediately refelcted in the plans (since 6.o or so AFAIR) it does not happen the other way around, but then again, I suppose the amount of data is a little too much?

Or, is this a general BIM problem?

[Anonymous]

Karl:

Did I say that there is scripting of objects in Revit?

Were we talking about one parametric table object that can be manipulated with dialogs, or, the Archicad concept of one fluid mathamatical table that can be parametrically scripted to act like any table you can imagine, or, your standing seam roof add-ons, or a guy who hacked his way to a solution for an area of revit that has yet to be developed fully?

I am truly sorry, but I did not post that reply in manner that was meant to be less than truthful or misleading, or to provided you with the oportunity to springboard into a discourse that led away from my understanding of the thread.

[Karl Ottenstein]

Bill,

I thought we were having a friendly learning experience here. I was just asking questions that aren't obvious for an outsider looking at the Revit demo.

Bill wrote:
Karl:

Did I say that there is scripting of objects in Revit?

No, but you implied it by saying:

However, to answer your question directly, your description of a GDL library objects sounds very, very familiar to me. Our library objects also act the same way; parameter-metrically... or something like that:)

...in response to my description of a table that required a script to implement it.

Were we talking about one parametric table object that can be manipulated with dialogs, or, the Archicad concept of one fluid mathamatical table that can be parametrically scripted to act like any table you can imagine, or, your standing seam roof add-ons, or a guy who hacked his way to a solution for an area of revit that has yet to be developed full?

It depends on the manipulation. The table I described requires mathematical manipulation ... which is why I brought up the roof surfacer as another example to clarify.

I am truly sorry, but I did not post that reply in manner that was meant to be less than truthful or misleading, or to provided you with the oportunity to springboard into a discourse that led away from my understanding of the thread.

No accusations of not being truthful ... I'm asking honest questions as I have no deep experience with Revit. This question is in fact central to the purpose of this thread - ArchiCAD vs Revit - and I don't understand your anger, nor that you haven't answered the question: I take it that one cannot define scripted objects in Revit that provide behavior similar to ArchiCAD then?

If not, then the next question of course is how important is that ability anyway...is it a major negative for Revit or a major asset to ArchiCAD? I'll leave the floor open to others since you seem to have a problem with the way I ask questions. I do hope you'll stay; I'll just be reading from now on.

Regards,
Karl