problems: Rendering cropped area + High accuracy colors

[AEismann]

Hi all,

So we are experiencing two main problems (rendering with Cinerender) :

1. rendering a cropped area - while doing it, let's say to change only a part of the whole image, the perspective is never the same, it means we cannot render just a part of the image and overlay it again to a previously full window rendered image. Does anyone know why is that ? if you want to change some detail in the render you have to render the whole image again. very useful and unprofessional. (think about vray/mental ray etc not mentioning 'render elements'.)

2. While rendering an image and trying to save a .tiff file which supports 32-bit color range (in order to adjust the exposure) after choosing in file>save as>options>high accuracy color with alpha channel we get the message "Cannot write output file. File not found" this happens only if i try to save a 32 bit channel tiff.

Any help someone ?

[Lingwisyer]

Do not crop? Then just set the layer to multiply? The perspective of the render matches that of the view window adjusted to that of the resolution aspect ratio, to fit with a render safe frame or fill without. So, maybe when the "Marquee and Crop" option is chosen, it re-adjusts to the crop center?



Ling.

[David Maudlin]

AEismann wrote:
1. rendering a cropped area - while doing it, let's say to change only a part of the whole image, the perspective is never the same, it means we cannot render just a part of the image and overlay it again to a previously full window rendered image. Does anyone know why is that ? if you want to change some detail in the render you have to render the whole image again. very useful and unprofessional. (think about vray/mental ray etc not mentioning 'render elements'.)

Don't crop the model, use the Marquee Tool (Flat Geometry Method) in the 3D Window to rerender a part of the image. Once you have placed a flat Marquee in the 3D Window, there will be an option to Render Marquee Region and Crop, which will render just the cropped area and matches the full render.

You should add a Signature to your Profile (click the Profile button near the top of this page) with your ArchiCAD version and operating system (see mine for an example) for more accurate help in this forum.

David

[AEismann]

David wrote:

AEismann wrote:
1. rendering a cropped area - while doing it, let's say to change only a part of the whole image, the perspective is never the same, it means we cannot render just a part of the image and overlay it again to a previously full window rendered image. Does anyone know why is that ? if you want to change some detail in the render you have to render the whole image again. very useful and unprofessional. (think about vray/mental ray etc not mentioning 'render elements'.)

Don't crop the model, use the Marquee Tool (Flat Geometry Method) in the 3D Window to rerender a part of the image. Once you have placed a flat Marquee in the 3D Window, there will be an option to Render Marquee Region and Crop, which will render just the cropped area and matches the full render.

You should add a Signature to your Profile (click the Profile button near the top of this page) with your ArchiCAD version and operating system (see mine for an example) for more accurate help in this forum.

David

Dear David, Ling,

Thank you for your reply, i added the signature to be more specific about operating system and archicad version. Sorry for being unclear about it, but I was using the marquee tool, both with crop and without, and in both cases weirdly enough it did not match a full render, i am attaching two versions, both with the marquee tool, one without crop and the other one is with. both results are not matching the full render when overlayed. you can see screenshots where the original render is a bit more white so you can tell the difference more easy.

Kind regards,
A. Eismann

[Erwin Edel]

To make sure perspectives match up between renders check the following things:
1. Save your work environment, this is to ensure the 3D window is the same size between renders. You can allways re-apply the saved work environment to be sure that it is. The size (width) of the 3D window is of influence to the perspective that is rendered.
2. Enable 'Apply Render Safe Frame'.
3. Save a camera and allways use that camera for the render by opening it (double click) before rendering. Camera also saves your sun position (for lighting purposes).

Regarding TIFF format: I'm not sure if it works properly with high accuracy colour and transparancy, you may have to use PNG for transparancy to work. Note that you only need this if you plan to replace the background image from your render with something else in post production.

Edit: rather than saving out the image for post production, you can also select all in the rendered image tab in ArchiCAD and copy and paste to your image editor. That's how we do post in photoshop in our office. Not sure if that works with replacing background, since we don't do that.

[AEismann]

Erwin wrote:
To make sure perspectives match up between renders check the following things:
1. Save your work environment, this is to ensure the 3D window is the same size between renders. You can allways re-apply the saved work environment to be sure that it is. The size (width) of the 3D window is of influence to the perspective that is rendered.
2. Enable 'Apply Render Safe Frame'.
3. Save a camera and allways use that camera for the render by opening it (double click) before rendering. Camera also saves your sun position (for lighting purposes).

Regarding TIFF format: I'm not sure if it works properly with high accuracy colour and transparancy, you may have to use PNG for transparancy to work. Note that you only need this if you plan to replace the background image from your render with something else in post production.

Edit: rather than saving out the image for post production, you can also select all in the rendered image tab in ArchiCAD and copy and paste to your image editor. That's how we do post in photoshop in our office. Not sure if that works with replacing background, since we don't do that.

Beste Erwin,

Bedankt voor je antwoord !
1. saving work environment - in my opinion going too far. we have to have the capability to render the same image from different computers like with any other rendering software.
2. we use always safe frames (which in the end could be the problem if the marquee is ignoring it)
3. we always use a camera with all the setting saved.

To add to this, the renders that i provided as an example were rendered after each other, so actually nothing changes (work environment, safe frames, settings etc').

Tiff format is the only one supporting 32-bit color with archicad (and transparency), i tested and i think you can save high accuracy color sometimes only if the render is finished - again another inconsistency. thanks for the copy paste tip ! ill try it.

The bottom line is that all those inconsistencies are making our rendering workflow impossible, while in other software lets say 3dsmax you don't have this issues. We have to provide a workflow that works in our office and rendering with cine render is full with flaws (which is absurd because it has so many features but the core elements like the consistency of resolution and aspect ratio is flawed).

[Anonymous]

I always publish renders from saved views which incorporate the view settings, render engine settings and the pixel dimensions of the view and have not had issues such as yours regarding the image size shift for a partial render.

Comparing ARCHICAD to a dedicated rendering package such as 3D Studio Max is not really a fair comparison, how well does 3D Studio do with preparing a set of drawings & schedules? The renders out of ARCHICAD are good enough for probably 95+% of all users, with probably 90% of users never really even approaching the limits of the rendering in AC.

Regards,
Scott

[Erwin Edel]

Rendering on different computers with potentially different size 3D window will allways yield a different perspective.

You may not like it, but that's how the software works.

You can try 'minimizing' the 3D window and setting a fixed 3D window size before rendering.

The marquee will likely not be pixel perfect though, so that might cause slight issue with lining up (but not to the extreme of your screenshot).

I mostly use marquee and partial renders to test out settings.

[AEismann]

sboydturner wrote:
I always publish renders from saved views which incorporate the view settings, render engine settings and the pixel dimensions of the view and have not had issues such as yours regarding the image size shift for a partial render.

Comparing ARCHICAD to a dedicated rendering package such as 3D Studio Max is not really a fair comparison, how well does 3D Studio do with preparing a set of drawings & schedules? The renders out of ARCHICAD are good enough for probably 95+% of all users, with probably 90% of users never really even approaching the limits of the rendering in AC.

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott,

You are right of course, but i was talking about only about the rendering part with regards to the marquee and crop rendering. can you really get matching perspective with rendering through the marquee crop tool ? then can you further elaborate on the steps youre taking ? maybe i missed something, then i will try to follow you.

Erwin wrote:
Rendering on different computers with potentially different size 3D window will allways yield a different perspective.

You may not like it, but that's how the software works.

You can try 'minimizing' the 3D window and setting a fixed 3D window size before rendering.

The marquee will likely not be pixel perfect though, so that might cause slight issue with lining up (but not to the extreme of your screenshot).

I mostly use marquee and partial renders to test out settings.

I will make some tests and give an update. thanks.

[AEismann]

update : from the comments above i picked up that changing the 3d window size will change the render. I didn't know that you can specify a window size by right clicking on the tab of the 3d window and then select 'set window size' -then I would assume you can have the same 3d window regardless to the computer and or screen resolution.

another weird thing is that apparently if I render with a marquee and crop, Archicad or Cinerender somehow do not match the proper ratio between cropped and full image resolution.

I think I have the solution by doing the following :

By right clicking on the tab of the 3d windows and choosing 'set window size', matching it to the render resolution, I think I was able to get same ratio with the cropped and full image.

NOTE : setting of 3d window size independently from fixed screen size (default) drastically changes the perspective ! -- here the difference with other 3d software that others always match the perspective of the 3d window and the 3d render regardless to the 3d window resolution.

If some comment above suggested this steps it wasn't clear enough for me so sorry if i missed it, but in the end think i have the solution. Thanks !