!Restored: Vectorworks 2009 BIM: Its Happening... Its Not Happening

[Aaron Bourgoin]

The press release and the white paper on this product are reminiscent of the American Presidential Election: casting doubt on the competition's experience and outlook.

"From a conceptual and philosophical perspective, BIM is a better way to design, construct, and manage buildings. It allows architects to design more efficiently, construction firms to better manage costs, and owners to stay on budget and control day-to-day operational costs. BIM fulfills the promise
of economic gain and also better business relations. Excessive change orders, resulting from communication errors or missing information, negatively reflect on owner’s perception of architects and construction firms. Architects and construction firms with a reputation for costly overruns tend to lose business.

"As the key technology shared between architects and construction firms, CAD applications have taken center stage in the movement to take BIM mainstream. CAD’s ability to capture and represent the geographic information, building geometry, component relationships, and quantities and
properties of building components is at the heart of BIM. Several CAD vendors tout their applications as central to the BIM process, capable of managing the complex 3D information model generated on a BIM project. But are they really? As BIM evolved, architectural intelligence was built on top of primitive foundations. Many BIM applications have limited functionality and key elements of the model cannot be represented in 3D; most do not have a modeling kernel reliable or fast enough to handle large, detailed 3D models. Without the efficiency of a purpose-built 3D modeling kernel, good visualization becomes an extremely time-consuming process.

"We have the answer to BIM’s technological problems: adopt the time-tested platform used by the MCAD industry to build the best architectural 3D CAD solution available. With a purpose-built 3D modeling kernel, Vectorworks 2009 manages building complexity which previously tested the limits of
most BIM applications."

But then, Boingo:

At the Nemetschek Press Event, Ralph Grabowski reports this about Jim Flaherty's keynote theme which is

"BIM Isn't Happening...

...because it costs architects to implement BIM [building information modeling], but they do not get paid more for using it. (In the row ahead of me, Ed Goldberg was vigorously nodding his head in agreement.) Architects want a payback for themselves; they care not if the owner saves money down the road with BIM, because architects don't get any of that savings paid back.

"The key strength of Vectorworks is its free-form modeling, which products like Revit can't do. Mr Flaherty is pleased that Autodesk helps out Vectorworks by marketing BIM and Revit -- but then ends up selling AutoCAD.

"For five years, the #1 selling point of Vectorworks has been its presentation graphics -- outputting good looking drawings with gradients, transparency, 2D Booleans, and non-photorealistic effects in 2D and 3D. All this generated within Vectorworks, again something competitors can't do.

"Now there is a new key mission: Design. Mr Flaherty segregates design into four steps:

I. 2D.
II. 3D Conceptualization or Visualization.
III. Integrated Design and Development.
IV. Model-centric BIM [building information modeling].

Most customers are at step II, 3D Conceptualization; he's trying to get users to the next step, Integrated Design.

Step IV? It's a long way off. Model-centric BIM is the future that everyone talks about today. But there are lots of holes in the process, such as legal issues. Today, BIM works only for owner-builder-operators, such as GM building its own plants.

So, what are some of the limitations of competitors -- Revit, in particular?

* Modeling limitation; freeform modeling is needed to design things like spline-shaped roof edges. Vectorworks is the only one with NURBS surfaces.
* 3D speed and robustness; purely parametric modelers can't handle the model size once details are added.
* Complex UI; users face varying user interfaces when they switch between 2D and 3D packages from the same vendor. Vectorworks has the same UI for all its software.
* BIM slows down design; users spend too much time wrestling with the system.
* Good visualization is hard to get; customers find they have a hard time reproducing the beautiful renderings pictured on the vendor's Web site.

Mr Flaherty sees BIM as something that excites accountants, but not architects, and thinks that paper drawings will be the preferred output method for his lifetime -- as opposed to exchanging drawings electronically."

see the whole article at Issue #572 : : Setpember 16, 2008
http://www.upfrontezine.com/2008/upf-572.htm

Seems Mr. Flaherty has a different idea of what BIM is. His approach seems to be to say, everyone else's ideas about BIM are wrong or wrong headed. And then to take BIM back to CAD circa 1993.

[Anonymous]

Also doesn't list any Archicad experience, but does claim that he is a Revit insider.

Metanoia, if you are so confident about Revit's superiority why do you have this compulsive need to constantly put both Archicad and Vectorworks down? Couldn't be because the Revit reality doesn't match the Revit hype could it. Or is it because you just can't accept that other people have a different point of view.

[Anonymous]

Dwight wrote:
WES MACAULAY is hereby pronounced to be not-a-duffus when it comes to BIM, so lay off.

When you put yourself out there as a Revit spokesperson and Bim expert you need to know what you're talking about,I would have thought Autodesk would have checked this persons credentials?
Its quite ironic that the wishlist manager wishers to be a BIM consultant...
At least at Nemetschek you need a Phd to direct development....maybe not at Revit..Good ol Wes is out there sprooking for ideas.
LOL,hes playing Autodesk like a hand puppet mate..sucked in

[Eduardo Rolon]

To clarify I am with Dwight on this. Wes has contributed and discussed on a lot of topics from Revit's and as an Ex AC user point of view to the benefit of the community.

Mikem, Wes has never hidden his Revit background and he is willing to see the BIM situation from AC's point of view.

BDC, those are unnecessary comments.

[Anonymous]

I've read Wes's comments for quite some time and just assumed that he was a frustrated Archicad user who had converted to Revit. From his website it would appear that he has never been an Archicad user at all.

Is it surprising then that he is constantly banging the drum for the official Revit view of what BIM is. Particularly given that he touts himself as a Revit 'insider' (aka beta tester or reseller or both).

If anybody of similar ilk were to register on the Revit web pages and start pushing Archicad or Vectorworks or AllPlan they would be banned almost immediately.

I have no objection to someone making constructive comments about BIM, but I do take exception to someone constantly trying to push an agenda which he has a vested interest in.

[Ben Cohen]

Mike, I thought you were the local Vectorworks reseller here in Perth?. I am sure I read in another thread that this was the case. If this is true, you may want to put this in your signature. I also noticed in another thread you are now using ArchiCAD, or just checking out the opposition?. We have a user group next Tuesday (7th Oct), you should poke your head in.. . PM me if you are interested.

[Anonymous]

Yes I am the local Vectorworks reseller. But as you also know I do have an Archicad license, and I was in fact one of the very first users in Perth.

And yes I do keep up on where Archicad is at and what the issues are because I am interested, and also because it is important to all of us that we don't get steamrolled by the Revit juggernaut.

Whilst I participate here I neither push the program I am involved in or try to denigrate Archicad or Revit. I also don't engage in putting down Archicad or Revit in the Vectorworks forums. The bloke you are all so cosy with doesn't quite have the same scruples.

[Aaron Bourgoin]

Credential Bashing: Maybe that could go into a separate thread. One whose subject line includes the word DooFuss.

I'm hoping this one can stay on topic. I raised the issue of what I perceived to be bafflegab in the Vectorworks 2009 press release on the topic of BIM. My thought was that you can't have it both ways - to restate that, you can't say BIM is the Future and then say something like the competition's engines are all based on dubious paradigms.

I've asked a question about what's inside Vectorworks 2009 elsewhere.

The market does need choices. But do we have to stoop to the level of US Election style advertising to sell a product?

Wes Macaulay is THE BIM GUY on Canada's West Coast. We've had Revit shills/trolls on this forum but Wes is definitely not one of them. I haven't seen anything he's written here that would put him in that camp. Wes is about the BIM stuff, not the BS.

yes i am an ArchiCAD reseller. Its been in my profile since October 27, 2003.

[Anonymous]

Aaron and I are comrades on the same team. I care about a process, not a platform -- and you'll note in my posts here that I am complimentary of ArchiCAD because I was a full time user around version 6.5, and still have a copy of 10 on my computer. So I'm here for old time's sake -- and because all ACers and Reviteers ARE making BIM happen, regardless of the software we use. I've never flamed anyone, and I welcome ACers over to AUGI (and protect them from flaming as well). And as I've posted before, I wish ArchiCAD every success, and have even opined as to how Nemetschek ought to move to make it more successful still. I'm Canadian, so I'm prone to peaceful impartiality. Except our beer is truly better than yours

And to BDC and others -- I'm here to encourage YOU to keep on using YOUR software. Use ArchiCAD -- get good at it! Show others how to use it! ArchiCAD isn't doing very well in my area, and I think that's a shame. And I want to tell you people how Revit is developing (and how AC is developing, too) so we all can keep the playing field as level as possible. I'm not telling you to switch -- you're happy; why on earth would you want or need to switch?

I worked for three years as a Revit consultant in Western Canada and the US, and have settled down with a Revit shop and teach Revit and AutoCAD at BCIT -- I get to see my family more this way. The life of a CAD/BIM consultant is too often on the road.

To sum up: as users we are really all on the same team. We're like people with two different brands of cars, with the hoods open, checking out the other guy's ride

[Anonymous]

Metanoia, whilst at the same time in the Revit forums you ae actively seeking to have a Mac version of Revit, and busily identifying Archicad strengths and weaknesses and promoting Revit developing capabilities to combat Archicad's strengths.

Now boys and girls you don't have to take my word for this. You are all big enough to register in the Revit forums, look for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.

[Anonymous]

I don't think I've talked much about AC's weaknesses on Revit's forums -- in fact, I've probably played more to its strengths. Like:

- trace/overlay feature
- being able to import and snap to PDFs
- better modularity with file linking
- arguably, AC is more scalable

I think Revit's renderer is better now, something which couldn't be said until this latest release. And I'm still screaming for a loft tool. Not that I really need it: I just want it 😉

I have always had a deep interest in 3D architectural CAD since the days of Geoff Langdon and the CADD Cup! My first real building model was in MiniCAD, the next was ArchiCAD, then BricsCAD, then finally Revit.

I don't sell Revit -- and dude, I'm NOT TELLING ANYONE TO SWITCH. That's your job 😉 And being the wishlist manager for Revit, shall I tell you about all our pain points... hmm?? Like:

- site tools (road, curbs sidewalks -- major frustration for Revit users. We've been yelling about it for years)
- NURBS (for you Euro designers, hehehe)
- more scalability
- faster display system (who doesn't want more speed?)
- popup to tell you who wants control of an object you've signed out
- duct tools like Revit MEP has
- structural tools like Revit Structure has
- to hell with Revit Architecture, Structure and MEP: bring on a Grand Unified Revit!

And I could go on, and I will...
- fascia at roof peak of slab roof doesn't miter with other fascias
- sloping walls using the wall tool (have to model them manually right now, or skin them onto mass objects)
- better curtain wall modeling
- customized elevation tags
- etc, etc

I mean, look at this list people -- this is just the beginning! Use Revit?? OMG, run away, run away!!

As for what I've said about ArchiCAD on AUGI, here's a typical post of mine (this one was with respect to AC 11):

One thing that came as a shock is that AC users don't have a working grid tool! They've got a beta version of it, but it evidently sucks mightily.

I also suspect the AC is more scalable -- it can handle larger projects, and can create more curvaceous geometry what with the bundling of Cinema 4D with AC (if you buy the combo -- kinda like AutoCAD Revit Architecture Series).

But as Fernando said, AC is perhaps more "manual" in its approach; change storey heights and you've got to redo all the wall heights on that storey.

I've got AC10 on my computer here and there are many more dialogs to plow through to get things done. Also, you have layers to manage which AC users tout as a feature, but it merely means more management, since you can put walls on the furniture layer. Assemblies aren't listed as such -- they're called 'Favorites' in AC and are more complicated to set up; you set up what layer your favorites will go onto when you use them. Revit's notion of categories is far more elegant and AC should have stolen that idea long ago. Attached walls don't automatically re-trim themselves to the roof when you change the roof... and so it goes. It would be a lot harder to learn than Revit. But if you are dead-set against using Windows (even in VMware or Boot Camp) AC is probably the best BIM app out there for the Mac.

And here's a quote from my thoughts on AC12:

Originally Posted by iandidesign:

Al-Qaeda does better video.

Quote of the day, perhaps?

Glad to hear that life in AC is a bit faster than minutes. And I would hope that Graphisoft and AC are raising the bar of their software -- imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all!

So there ya go... full disclosure. Go over to AUGI and search for user "Wes Macaulay" for posts containing the word "ArchiCAD". I'm respectful enough of the software that I always spell it "ArchiCAD" -- not "Archicad" 🙂