Graphisoft doesn't understand USA market - need for engineers

[Eric Milberger]

I think the US is misunderstood.  Graphisoft.  You guys need to understand if we choose your product, we are at your mercy to compete in the world or Revit.

And we need more participants and more Engineers.  From what I can tell is there is only one structural Engineer in the US using this product.  And very few users for nonresidential.  That is what I see as we have no way to no otherwise.  For this list of improvement.  the answer should be we do all if they improve the product and NOW along with giving the software away for subscription memberships.  Give it away for a year with a required membership thereafter,  What do you have to lose but adding new users?

Give 1 year free to any University student for after they graduate.  And they must use thru the university for free while in school.

[Karl Ottenstein]

You may not like the way Graphisoft manages the USA market, but they have been here for 30 years and actually do understand it.   If you are looking for an engineer, contact either GSNA or your reseller ... or Bim6x... any of whom can give you a list of engineers I believe.  There is not just one.

[Eric Milberger]

That  been done.  Contacting support.  There is only one Structural I can find and it is across the country.  And this is the same company for NEP.

They are licensed across most states but no offices in these locations.

We have potential right now in FL, TN, OH, MI, and six other states.  Not s single Engineer in any of those states so we could at least meet on site.

But we need one on one during design.   I am finding this impossible as I cannot find a single one on a 20 state radius.

This is for Commercial Work  and Mid size commercial use cannot afford flights and high rates.   So it is eigher Revit or old school.  I give my current 2d Autocad Engineers dwg plans (Meaning I lose time and have to take responsibility with every change.  Porvide these daily at my expense. and never get a model from them.   

The other is to work with Revit Engineers.  I have to again provide all the work back and forth and all the checking when the products don's work together.  My time and responisbilty. 

Plus we are in a hotbed of government work here.  Graphisoft is not allowed.

[Karl Ottenstein]

Have you spent any time learning about interoperability with OpenBIM via IFC etc?  Your engineer does not have to use ArchiCAD.  I’m not sure what has happened with government work but some years ago ArchiCAD was the approved BIM solution the GSA, US Coast Guard and other organizations.  What do you mean by “Graphisoft is not allowed”?   What formats are accepted for submittals and by which agencies that you are concerned with?

[Eric Milberger]

I don't have time - NOONE else here uses IFC.  They dont use it or ask  for it.  I have worked in 28 states, Canada, and England as well as a few other areas.  It has all been 2d or Modeling but never once did anyone ask for IFC models.

I just left AECOsim as the first Architect from Bentley because of the same issue,  I lost many jobs because I am not REVIT.

I lost work because I could not do Revit.

I lost money paying to work around revit and hours preparing 2d sets and models for Revit companies to use.

I cannot find any modeling Engineers that want to bother with Archicad - unless I do the work.

They are all to busy to try and work with me in the model if they are Revit.

And any aspect here hurts the budget as it can double my work.  Does double my work.

I selected this product even being down this same road since the early 80's with Microstation/AECOSim

For my work to flow I need ARCHIcad Engineers.  And i have only found one that requires a hotel and flight to visit.

[Eric Milberger]

You asked a question about what is allowed.

Army - Microstation

Airforce - Microstation

FBI - revit

Nuclear - Microstation

These are all I have worked for and all required MicroStation - Now Autocad for some and Revit is all I see.

The reality in the use is if you are not Revit you are handicapped.  I Love Archicad and I loved AECOSim (which could  fix many of its issues but still a good product.

right Now I am working in Nashville, Tampa and Alabama - Only 2d Engineers (Autocad and Microstation ) or Revit are available.  Nothing else.

And if there are any hiding here I cannot find them.  Plus- I am not a residential Architect - Commercial/Recreational only.  So using a residential MEP or structural is not an option.

[Eric Milberger]

GREAT EXAMPLE just now.

Sent a Revit file of my Model to my Civil Engineer this morning.  Revit will not read it and I don't have a copy of  Revit to find out why it cannot be read.

[Eric Milberger]

So I do what I have to do with AECOsim - is to create a 2d floor plan for the engineer.

It is now my problem throughout the project.  So every time there is an update I have to take time to create 2d files as needed.

Note that for some jobs we are the prime and sometimes we are not.  But in all cases we have to do this for the subs and not the other way around.

I will note that I can read there civil model well, so far and I can transfer it into mine.  that is working at the moment - However I cannot make a change to their model and send back to them to use.  

[Eric Milberger]

I will add one more item for the day.  There is a reason Microstation/AECOSim is dead and a non-threat in so many ways.  Loosing shares and users.  And the items listed prior, is the issues that I am talking about here.  Revit is a horrible product.  Very, very bad product but - that is not the issue.

[Mahmoud Qenawi]

Hi @Eric Milberger,

I guess your .rvt file if saved from Archicad is not read in Revit because:

1) Either you saved it from Archicad 27 so it will be saved to Revit 2023 or 2024, that means if your partner is using 2022 or older it won’t be opened.

2) If you partner is using a Revit lite ver. he won’t be able to read the file as exporting from Archicad to Revit supports only the full version of Revit.

Thanks & I hope it helps.

[Eric Milberger]

NO that is not it.  I have not found an Engineer that wants to work with me.  There is to much for them to have to work with the hassle.

Comment from the Engineer  "If I bring in your model how do I guarantee everything you provide is there.  Who will fix something that is not there, who will pay for the extra time to work with your software.

[StefanV_BCP]

Hi Eric,
As I can see, the main problem is that the USA market perceives BIM = Revit, which is sad to hear. It's not much better here in Europe, but thankful to organizations like Open BIM, the BIM topic has become much more demystified, so people understand that there is a common platform for an exchange called IFC while choosing a BIM authoring tool depending on the companies and their needs.

There isn't a magic pill that solves this issue, but may I recommend working remotely with other parts of the world? 

Cheers,

Stefan

[Eric Milberger]

That is not an option as they must be licensed here and carry the appropriate seal.

Residential is another story but I do not do residential.  I require licensed Mechanical, Electrical, Structural and Plumbing Engineers. And this is for each state we work in.

But we just don't have them here.  The truly only way I see this happening is buy-on-get one free for anyone that is a licensed professional.

Lower yearly cost

And give a copy to every student that is in a degreed program and let is stay valid for one year pass graduation.  (If someone wants support - they purchase it)

[Marc H]

Hi Eric,

I understand your post is to encourage AC engineering in the US for larger projects, but honestly, I have not seen much of that in my many years of (non-residential) experience and I've used AC for over twenty years now.  The environment is, as you and others outline, that larger US public and private clients have specified Autodesk standard (i.e., DWG, DWF, RVT, etc.) deliverables in their contracts for years.  As you may be aware, the GCs are also required for deliverables and the general landscape is they are increasingly accepting Revit models for their coordination (though Bluebeam is also very popular).  I, for one, do not see these trends changing anytime soon.  Meanwhile, you have a portfolio you want to deliver on !

You may already have considered the following approaches, but I'll mention them here in case you have not:  

a) Team up with a Revit-based AEC team, wherein you continue to drive the design and let them do the production. You continue QA. They will likely accept your PLNs or IFC exports.  Yes, less fee, but also a lot less headache and liability.  One opportunity this allows is greater quality time for participation through construction.  Maybe it becomes an IPD contract.   Because of my circumstances, I have done this for years: using AC for front-end planning and feasibility, while the main workforce is Revit.  (You will find some of the midsize and large firms keep a few AC licenses to allow for their own staff to do pre-planning and schematics, as well as BIM exchanges under contract.)

b) Bring in Revit architectural talent into your firm for a studio within your office to work on those contracts. Some senior designers I've worked with are very proficient in both programs and I expect more recent graduates probably have even more dual proficiency, not to mention experience with Maya, Rhino, Grasshopper, SU, etc. Whew !

c) Find a non-US based (but with US presence enough for local knowledge and AHJ permitting) engineering firm that will work with your AC models.

I hope this helps and you find opportunities in the resulting deliveries.

[Eric Milberger]

And IFC is better but the comment is WHY -  Why not just work in the enemy software - then less danger or bad translation or loss of time when you have to constantly update different versions.  I hope that I can find AC users so that I don't have to hire Revit Engineers.  IFC just adds another level for work you have to add onto a project.

[StefanV_BCP]

Hi Eric,

The reason why IFC is better comes down to a simple answer: we need an open-source format that everyone can use to communicate, or else we will have the same fiasco as with DWG (keep in mind that even today not all DWGs are created equal).

I still believe that there is room for a good workflow using IFC, but both parties need to understand how. A federated approach to doing things, in my opinion, is the only way to ensure model quality and clean files. Sure, it would be nice to reach a day and age where we can simply translate IFC elements into native elements in our software, but that is very unlikely.

A federated approach still ensures that users invest their eye in checking their work, instead of solely relying on software. At least, that is my humble opinion.

Cheers,
Stefan

[Aaron Bourgoin]

My take on the concerns raised here are that Structural Engineers run at least two different models of the same project on different platforms - in my world this is an analysis tool best suited to reinforced concrete structures, Revit solely for the documents and in some cases, something else to generate the rebar shop drawings.

Archicad can do two of these things out of the box and the third with a Hungarian Add-on.

To work with engineers requires an specific type of IFC file that brings the analytic model with it as well as the geometric model. Graphisoft has only translators for Nemetschek engineering solutions that have no toe-hold in the North American engineering market. We need something that could produce an E-Tabs file, at the very least.

[Eric Milberger]

Agreed Archicad is better - 

It is the lack of others (Engineers) and even other Architects.

Hiring someone you can't work with is OK on little projects but I would not want my Engineers 1000 miles away when things are critical.  I will be trying that soon however I may have to support Revit and hire  a Revit Engineers as they are everywhere.

At the minimum we need a way to find others using this product in the US.  The drafting priciples are the same but sooooo much is very different and does not fit the situation

[Eric Milberger]

HERE GOES..       Are there any Structural Engineers OUT THERE!!!!!  ANYONE in FL, AL, GA, TN, MS, SC, NC, KY?

[Eric Milberger]

So far cannot find a Structural Engineer I can work with.  Apparently none in the south-east U.S. or a little North like Chicago.

So I cannot make a call.  My current Structural does all his work as he has done i for 40 years in 2d.  Works just fine, just does not help me.

I still have to draw all the main structure to make a schematic design so, the same way I have done since starting  3d models back in the late 90's.

I love the software but (AC) however I wish I could go beyond the way I have had to work for the last 30+ years

[Marc H]

You might try exploring a referral through Eric Bobrow.  He has a lot of US connections and I believe he may have some insight to finding a firm.  

https://bobrow.com/consulting/