I quit because I need to leave, and GS gives me a survey

[Ignacio Azpiazu]

How do I get rid of this reminder of the cluelessness of the leadership of this company?

AC26 AUS. I want to quit, I need to shut down, the last thing I need is the process stopped for some marketing research.

 

[torben_wadlinger]

You haven't been around long enough to really know Graphisoft and to understand why we are so outraged by these surveys. At least in Germany there was a distribution network down to the local level. Our direct contacts for problems and suggestions were always these Graphisoft partners. The information was collected there and passed on to the national partners and from there it went directly to Budapest. We knew each other and had a personal business relationship.

Huw Roberts destroyed all that.

That's why you have to do these stupid surveys - because you don't have the real feedback.

And as many others have already written: take a look at the forum!!!!! Amazingly, there is a worldwide consensus on what is going wrong with Archicad. You don't need to do surveys. Just analyse the forum. And make the roadmap binding with a possibility to vote on individual aspects. And be more transparent in what you do.

Get out of your bubble, stop drinking chai lattes and get back to your core business.

[runxel]

This part of the message is moderated according to Community Posting Guidelines.
It kinda looks like an attempt to grab the last straw, in the (unfulfilled) hope that the wide user base would just selects a high number please, so that to the management we, the vocal users, can be presented as the outliers, while in fact all is fine and GS does not need to listen to us.

I really wonder how much more pushback you need to repent the ways y’all doing.
It is in a way like we need to observe a catastrophic accident happen in real time and there is always the worst decision being done (like those cheap horror movies, where it's more funny than gruesome, because everybody just facepalms instinctively).

@torben_wadlinger's comment says it all.
GS has shoveled their own grave. Now get out of it on your own and leave us alone with surveys you can not even reliably use, as @Eduardo Rolon said.

(Also on a sidenote: Those architects, who are not on this forum are not the ones, you'd need to make a program for. You got that all completely reversed. Also, you don't lack communication from us – we are very vocal –, but we from you.)

I'm sorry, Balint. I know, you're doing just your job. But we feel everyday a bit more helpless, so if this appears aggressive it is just that we feel bitten in the arse quite big.

By now you can actually just throw a dart at ANY part of Archicad and you will find endless stuff to improve and we would love that. But since ARCHItects are somewhat neglected in the world of ...um, *checks notes*... ARCHIcad, it is hard for us go down this route, we can not understand. The big price increasing, another one coming soon, the end of perpetual licenses... And we do not get any service in return. Just have a look at that casualty called a Roadmap. There is like nothing architecture related in there at all. (Openings and Keynotes are relevant to the other trades as well)

PS: @thesleepofreason May I please choose a negative number?

[Eduardo Rolon]

@Balint Kezer the data you are getting in those pop-ups is not dependable. If possible check how many pop-ups are closed without filling them out or are marked as "0". The users that contribute most (+2 moderators) are indicating that they don't like them in very strong terms.

Because it is the "easiest" way for you doesn't mean it is the correct way or it that it is well received. This has been the pattern for the last few years, GS decides to do something, users give feedback that it is wrong, GS decides to ignore users because it is either too late, too difficult or by some hidden reason.

@torben_wadlinger comment is the correct one. If I have an "real" issue the first phone call is to my local reseller, second to another one, third to my contacts within GS.

The correct way to do this surveys is to send them by email once a year, maybe right after we pay our SSA.

If you don't get enough answers back that gives you an answer that can be interpreted as: 70% will not recommend - 30% didn't want to fill the survey.

On another point if your users do not fill the surveys the solution will never be "I will force them to fill it". That will just make things worse.

Reading material (again):

https://every.to/p/breaching-the-trust-thermocline-is-the-biggest-hidden-risk-in-business

https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys

[Balint Kezer]

Thank you all for your insightful feedback. I personally find it very useful and spend a significant amount of time reading through the forum to understand the best developments we should undertake.

The quote from Gábor Bojár resonates with me, and we strive to uphold its principles. However, based on your responses, it’s clear that we have room for improvement in this area. This is definitely something we need to address in the future.

[DGSketcher]

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@Balint Kezer wrote:

This is definitely something we need to address in the future.

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Forgive me for taking this slightly out of context but it makes the point that we are forever being advised of things happening at some point in the future without any real absolutes. Our client's want start dates, payment dates, completion dates etc All we hear from GS is "it is coming". So is the end of the world.  If we are to see any reassurance from the new management then it needs to include confident statements of what relevant changes will be delivered and when. Delay's happen, we get that, but don't wrap everything in uncertainties. Renewal dates are approaching and some of us need to decide where we are placing our financial investment bets for our & your future... 🕰

[Holger Kreienbrink]

Gentlemen,
I am responsible for this survey, so If you are angry, then may it be with me. 
I would like to give you some background why we have launched it. 

As you are hopefully aware, Archicad is available in various languages. And not everyone is here in this English, German, Portuguese or Japanese forum. I personally know quite a lot of users who are not actively participating - but are hardcore users.

We want to listen to these people. This survey, especially the follow up questions, gives us data. Which is more than single opinions (please don´t get me wrong on that - it sounds harsh, I know).
The best way to collect data is inside of Archicad, because here we can reach out to almost everyone. 
  
We use AI to extract what people are writing, because it understands various languages. People are writing in French, in Italian, Romanian, etc. AI can also interpret the sentiment.  
So this is definitely NOT a marketing survey.

So far we have collected approx 25.000 answers. I guess you will agree, that this amount of answers will give us statistical values we can work with. We can break them down to countries and language version. 

And one more: This survey pops up 3 times max. If you ignore it and close it the first time, it will come up for 2 more times. And then it will stay silent. 


So, all together:
If you fill it up it helps us to collect data for the future. If you ignore and close it will stay silent and will not bug you anymore. 
The job of my team is to gather all kind of inputs for further development. And this survey is one important part of that. 

Thanks for reading. I hope I was not too straight. 😉 

[DGSketcher]

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@Holger Kreienbrink wrote:

So far we have collected approx 25.000 answers. I guess you will agree, that this amount of answers will give us statistical values we can work with. We can break them down to countries and language version. 

I hope that means 25k and not 25 to three decimal places. 😜 (Sorry, architect humour)

But more importantly, you have all this data yet never have I seen this forum so close to self-destruction. As I said to @Balint Kezer what reassurance can we expect and when? Sometime soon is not a valid response. 🕰

[torben_wadlinger]

Nice to hear from you, Holger.

25.000 answers is a significant number. I'm a curious what GS learnd from that answers and what are the consequences?

[thesleepofreason]

25 000 is not a small number - although it doesn't say much without the response rate.

Anyways - I'm glad to hear that you have overcome the statistical/information processing challenges (good use of AI) alluded to in  Graphisoft public roadmap - Follow-up conversation and look forward to see roadmap/wish voting functionality introduced - any day now! I take for granted that any other obstacle has been cleared in the 908 days since the effort to do so was announced Future of wishes .

[runxel]

Lieber Holger, thank you very much for chiming in!
Congratulations on getting so many responses, I genuinely wouldn't thought this would work. I hope it helps you.
I still think, with all due respect, you didn't understand a single bit why this thread is like it is. „Schade!“

Let me be straight here.
It is about attitude.
It just feels so wrong, Holger, and that’s what we are talking about. You can do all the surveys in the world, whatever, fine!

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@Holger Kreienbrink wrote:

We want to listen to these people.

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But you didn’t listen at all for the last 5 years!?
We can not take you serious anymore. The trust has broken. And it is on YOU to restore that.

This f.e.tish of „more data“ (not only here but in general, irl) was always weird for me, same for the „oh we need to gather more input before we can build a wish system“, sparkled with some always background yodeling of „Yes yes it will come, just be patient“ (as if we are some naughty children, not customers; we hate this „Hinhaltetaktik“. Nothing came out of that so far).
Or to quote a famous sports articles manufacturer: JUST DO IT.
Anything would be better than the vast nothingness we have right now. You do not need any statistical values to see and know and understand, that AC is lacking in a broad way these days, and basically just consists of workarounds on top of workarounds that barely hold things together.

But you know what: I’ll gladly give you some statistical values!
Guess how many posts this forum has on the Structural thingy.
If you guessed „less than I have fingers“: woop woop, you’re correct! 🥳
So clearly, nobody cares about that, right? That’s what the data strongly suggests. But this does, however, not correlate to the „New Features Guide“ for the last versions at all! For AC 25 e.g. that unsolicited SAM malarkey took a swooping 29% of the whole PDF! (I still remember how flabbergasted and shocked I was).
So what I am saying here is: all the data was always there. You just didn’t act on it – but that would be the real crucial part. 😉
Now you want even more data. Will you act this time?
We can’t tell for sure. But one thing is clear: We lost the patience and the trust in GS’ ability to deliver. And the comments here clearly address this issue.

We can have another private chat about that, Holger, if you’d like.

@thesleepofreason  Oh, its just been nearly 3 years? Ha, rookie numbers! (some wishes are ten times older!)

@DGSketcher German notation  ; )

[DGSketcher]

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@runxel wrote:

@DGSketcher German notation  ; )

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Assumed so, just trying to break the ice with an international notation issue. 😉👍

[jl_lt]

Nice and sensible answer, thank you. Hope you get the data you are looking for and be able to act on it.

all the other points made here still stand though

[Bricklyne Clarence]

I will double down on the people trying to advise you that this survey is probably not yielding you guys very good results.

Given the perception here where it seems like most people are more annoyed by the appearance of this pop-up than are not, it's probably safe to assume that you're getting more annoyed (at best) or angry (at worst) respondents.

Angry or annoyed respondents who are in a hurry or trying to get to the task of using the program, or leaving to go home are probably not going to give the same care and consideration to the answers, and therefore not give you very useful results.

There's also the additional fact that the big flaw with surveys and polls which is that they are a wind-vane for current sentiment - in other words,  a measure of how people feel at the current time they are responding to it and not generally.

And in this sense they tend to be very inaccurate and unreliable where very strongly-felt about topics are concerned.

For example, if I'm restarting my ArchiCAD after it just crashed and is costing me time, and the survey pops up during that restart,......well,....you can figure out for yourself what sentiment that particular response will capture, if I choose to answer it then or at all.

I question the whole logic of using this methodology as a means of trying to find out what the short-comings and areas in need of improvement of the program are, but that's a debate for another forum, and ultimately I understand the people responsible needing a base of data and information from which to work with.

I  just question the quality of information you're getting back, and as a result what you guys in turn are actually responding to, in deciding what needs to be improved and how.

On the flip side, this might answer for some of us (the users) why there sometimes seems to be such a massive disconnect between what Graphisoft feels needs improving in the program  versus what users actually experience as ailing the program and how its falling behind.

Sometimes "numbers" and cold data only help enclose you in those impenetrable silos that seem to be at the nub of your problems rather than helping you see the wider picture, or the forest for the trees........to mix a couple of metaphors.,....

Just saying.

[mthd]

Hi all, first of all, surveys contain leading questions that were devised by the author. That means that they are dictating the content of what is to be discussed or what needs to be worked on inside AC.

Second: Interpretation of the statistics is a bit like someone looking at the stars for patterns.

Third: The surveys allow the authors to hide behind a veil so they don’t get upset by hearing the truth of how users really feel about a certain aspect of Archicad.

Fourth: None of us here would like to be duped into accepting things we simply do not want developed further in a future version of Archicad.

Fifth: Graphisoft is accountable to its parent company and they really dictate to them the future direction of development.

Like it or not, we do not really have much of a say in the future directions taken by those companies. So in the end, if the product suits you enough then you will use it and if it doesn’t you don’t.

I just accept that and move on with my work, employing the CAD products that help me out the most.

[Holger Kreienbrink]

This survey has a free text entry (which you might have noticed if you did not abort it). This gives us direct input. No questions are driving the answers into any direction. Unfiltered text....that will be translated, scanned, clustered, etc with AI. 

We can also see how many people have aborted the survey. We see how the perception of this survey differs, how the values differ from country to country, etc. 

Cold data as you say......I do believe in statistics. 

This input in one of multiple inputs and influences that drive our decisions. BTW, constructive discussions in forums are also an input. 🙂 

[Xandros]

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@Holger Kreienbrink wrote:
And one more: This survey pops up 3 times max. If you ignore it and close it the first time, it will come up for 2 more times. And then it will stay silent.

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Is there a statistic showing, how many people filled out the survey the first time it popped up, the second or the third?

If it repeats to come up everytime (how should I as a user know, it will stop appearing after aborting it for 3 times?), I might feel forced to fill out the survey so it doesnt appear again.

I'd appreciate a check box like Barry suggested

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@Barry Kelly  wrote:
or at least there should be an option no not show this survey again

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It reminds me of the bug-report window (I think starting from ArchiCAD 26) that I wasn't able to close neither with Cancel or Esc or the small x in the top right corner. I developed a habit closing the bug reporter via task manager, since I hate the feeling of being forced to participate in things, where I dont want to participate.

[DGSketcher]

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@Holger Kreienbrink wrote:

BTW, constructive discussions in forums are also an input. 🙂 

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There have been plenty of constructive discussions around here. Hasn't made much difference though, we've still ended up in the current bloatware mess.

Perhaps you could give us a simple percentage ratio of (Delivered requested improvements and wishes / Total number of requested improvements and wishes) for the last five years, you can even give the answer to three decimal places if it helps.

or how about the (Delivered requested improvements and wishes / Number of non-requested features implemented).

Sorry if this doesn't seem constructive but if you are flying the flag for statistics I assume you have something tangible to back up your position? 

[Ignacio Azpiazu]

Holger, your replies are a disaster. They leave no room for hope.

[On a positive note: they reminded me of this brilliant text

https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law ]

[mthd]

Hello Holger, as you know Archicad is known for its level of accuracy in producing construction documentation etc. Statistics and AI is really just guesswork rather than the full accuracy of the human minds that actually created AI. Please keep this in mind when getting feedback from your user base. Then GS should be able to more accurately address the needs of Architects and Designers who use their specialized CAD software. There are many brilliant minds using Archicad and GS needs to tap into them to produce an even more outstanding CAD/BIM system.

[Eduardo Rolon]

Informal poll created here:

https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/General-discussions/Should-GS-include-Surveys-when-launching-or-...

Don'k know if we can achieve 25,000 different users…

[Bricklyne Clarence]

If the results of that informal poll (...so far) are anything to go by (and yes the sample size is small, at the moment), it should clue Graphisoft folks in as to the imprudence of using this method as a means of collecting data and information about the program, and as I stated before, make them question the quality - and ultimate usefuleness - of the responses and data they're getting back.

Again,....small sample size;.....also probably not representative of a global userbase.

However it's also worth noting that it's not just the "usual 15 or so complainers" as we're often dubbed here voicing their dislike for it, so that should also tell them something.

Or so we would hope.