Modeling
About Archicad's design tools, element connections, modeling concepts, etc.

Beams vs Wall Complex Profiles

Anonymous
Not applicable
This is a question for the experienced users:
What should I use for best practice?

Considering that the load bearing structure is made of Reinforced Concrete, while the closing walls could be different layers of materiales for insulation, concrete blocks, lightweightconcrete, empty/air, etc. with a non-load behavior.

1) Is it best to have the load-bearing structure made of beams? (I have started with this)

2) Is it best to integrate the load-structure (reinforce concrete) into the the Complex profile Wall? (I am currently changing to this)




Personal notes:
(1.1) I found difficulty to keep structure and walls up to date... if I change one, I have to manually change the other, they are not associated.
(1.2) I found difficulty in keeping a good outlook/views, as beams removes material from walls including finishings.

(2.1) It seem to be the best approach, most comfortable for design, but have some limitations.
(2.2) The wall is truncated by the roof, then the reinforced concrete is not following the diagonal roof's line. Actually, correct me if I am wrong, the upper line of the wall (height) can not be diagonal, while the base is straight. (variable height along wall-axis).
(2.3) I still need Beams as structural-loadable material when there is no wall below it. OR make another empty complex profile, which would be shown as a wall in floorplan and is not.
(2.4) I just started and already have 4 Complex profiles for walls. I can see how this is getting overloaded. It will get harder to keep in-sync when I have to create different profile for light variations. (variation could be different finishings, different uses, as interior/exterior/onlybeam, etc.)


I wonder if I could define an scriptable complex profile, enabling parts of it, depending on some wall attributes.
Example: Core thickness 10cm for interior, 17 for exterior and stone finishings +3cm, no wall-core when only-structural-beam is required.
Example: Beam size depending on upper story calculated weight.
7 REPLIES 7
Anonymous
Not applicable
Any hint? Idea? Recommendation?
Eduardo Rolon
Moderator
Your question is not clear on what you are trying to achieve and that maybe why there are no answers yet.

The "correct: way is your second option but there are exception to this rule and these are based on your design options. The problems you are encountering with the 2.X option look more like "new user" problems.

The concepts to keep track of are:
•01• Model it as it is going to be built.
•02• 01 is correct if the design is not changing constantly then the correct way is to model it to make it easier to change
•03• If you are having to do a lot of exceptions (too many complex profiles for example) then it might be that you are not modeling the project in the most efficient way or there is a setting you are missing. For example all complex profile walls that have the same materials in cross section but different heights are one complex profile.

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There are no scripting options in AC in the way that you want. It might be possible to use the Rhino+Grasshopper connection to achieve itt.

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Just to be sure. I might have interpreted your question wrong so take all of this with a grain of salt.

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2.1 Agree
2.2 Check your Building Material settings
2.3a Depends on which is easier to update
2.3b Have no idea what you are trying to achieve here. A complex profile Wall with an empty opening might be able to achieve the same result with less mess
2.4 Agree that it might become overwhelming but if that is the only option then you will need to develop a workflow so that it is easier. Check how to "Override Settings". Have no idea what "onlybeam" is. Looks like you need to do some more testing to find the correct way to model it.
Eduardo Rolón AIA NCARB
AC27 US/INT -> AC08

Macbook Pro M1 Max 64GB ram, OS X 10.XX latest
another Moderator

Anonymous
Not applicable
I appreciate your answer ejrolon. I got what I needed.

I will use beams only when I can not achieve a result expected with Walls+CProfiles.

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Yes! I am a new self-learning user of BIM-modeling asking for hints which I could not found on internet.
Some things are taking me too much time to figure it out.

My expectative is to develop and parametrize an idea of a home, while the idea changes because of the owner's will is getting more accurate, and/or because of better energy/material/construction performance.

It won't be what I need if I can not change it quickly and show/observe the results out of those changes.
Otherwise going directly into the construction and fix issues would be cheaper.

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(Please correct me if I am wrong)
Sry, I tried to be shorter in first post.

Further for 2.4)

The reason to ask, is that the solution may be right in front my eyes but I don't know it yet.


Further for 2.3)

Conceptually in real-world a Wall splits places by placing an X material between some 2 sides / ambients.
A beam does not.

A Beam is a solid element capable of holding the external natural forces out of the Walls.

Because of that, the Floorplan should not confuse them, having different symbologies for each.
Then, using Walls+CProfiles, is a decision based in the software constraints, not in a better modeling of the reality.

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In AC, the materials classified as "Core" objects are those that holds the external forces over an individual Complex Profile.

While the Property of an object "Load-Bearing" explicitly says that this object, made of certain profile, describes the structure holding the entire project.

Those, to be able to show the Reinforced concrete inside a CProfile (which in reality would be a beam), I have to make the Wall as a "Load-Bearing" and is not. So the information modelled contradicts reality.

If I tell the Wall to be a "Load-Bearing" object, then I am making all of its Individual Core object parts of the holding structure of the project. But the Walls are really only insulation proposes with light core materials.



My work around to this was:
- Make a set of CProfiles for my region building materials and different uses.
- Make some of those sets to contain the same Material used for Structural Beams.
- Use Walls where ever should be a Wall in reality.
- Use Beams crossing around if there should be no-wall below it.

The persistent problem is:
- The Model Display: Core only shows windows and doors asociated with Walls. They are not Core !!!
- The Model Display: Core on Load-Bearings object only shows cores of Walls too.

The new workaround for this was:
- Make the real Core objects of CProfiles for walls classified as "Other". Not finishings, not cores.
- Leave only Material meant to be Core-Load-Bearing as Core of the Wall.
- Make ALL Walls as "Load-Bearings"

The LAST persistent problem is:
- Windows and Doors show up in Model View Core on Load-Bearings objects only, but those do not have that property to be setup.
Eduardo Rolon
Moderator
Good that you got what you needed.

On 2.3
If a Beam or Column is the correct element to use then use that. The only sacrifice you are making might be that they take longer to edit than a regular wall but you can use different workflows to use AC's tools as you need them. But it looks like you are getting a handle on that.

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Take in consideration that as you start to do more projects you will get more proficient in the use of the program and you should be able to find the correct/easy/preferred workflow. At this point I am not 100% sure as to why you need it to do it that way and that is not wrong it is that I use AC in a different way.
Eduardo Rolón AIA NCARB
AC27 US/INT -> AC08

Macbook Pro M1 Max 64GB ram, OS X 10.XX latest
another Moderator

Anonymous
Not applicable
Yes but the learning curve, seem to be equal to the process of finding workarounds.

Eduardo Rolon
Moderator
They are mostly workflows not workarounds and even those are expected since we are not talking about writing letters in MS Word.
Eduardo Rolón AIA NCARB
AC27 US/INT -> AC08

Macbook Pro M1 Max 64GB ram, OS X 10.XX latest
another Moderator

Anonymous
Not applicable
Lets leave some notes registered in this thread.

I found that AC is scriptable. It supports a GDL language.

http://gdl.graphisoft.com/
http://gnudatalanguage.sourceforge.net/
http://www.graphisoft.com/support/developer/tools/

And even better, it also has an SQL interface ready to connect excel to it.
http://helpcenter.graphisoft.com/guides/archicad-19/archicad-19-calculation-guide/sql-in-archicad/


I am starting to understand that AC has many useful tools.
The question is to discover where? and how?

I wonder where is the Array object. It has to be simpler than download a 3rd party addon.
Where is the Parameterized Dimensions Object... those with calculated dimmensions from other parameters..