Hotlinked Modules Bug?

[Anonymous]

I don't know if this is a bug, or if I am complicating things for AC12. A quick rundown of the set up:

The entire project is multiple story college housing with several units repeated in each level, and most of the levels typical. We have what I think is a simple hotlink manager set up. Modules for each unit plan, typical level plan plus a couple unique levels, and exterior envelope. The unit plan modules plus a few more elements make up a level module. The master PLN will consist of level modules (unit modules become nested obviously) and the exterior envelope module.

Does this sound like a typical set up? It looks good for us. But our issue has been with wall composites changing on its own. Our attribute manager shows the exact same number of composites and in identical order before our user created composites start listing. This mostly occurs in the level plans with unit modules in place. We may open the file one day and see the wall composite assignments have been rearranged. The walls are still correctly in place, but different thicknesses due to wrong composite assignments. Sometimes we close the file then reopen and it has gone away. Sometimes it doesn't. It wasn't until this morning when I figured out that if I just cut and paste the corrupted modules within the same opened file, it will correct itself. That is what made me ask if this is a bug.

So basically, two long (sorry) questions here. Is the set up typical of what most of you practice? Or are there better suggestions? I'm all ears. And is my wall composite corruption a bug? Or a flaw in my setup?

Oh, and two more comments. There was suggestion of working in PLN format, then save as a MOD. That didn't work because I kept getting messages saying my clipboard was empty. Publishing did work but if I publish a level, I lose my nested unit modules? And if we decide to hotlink all of our modules at PLN files, that would make the file unnecessarily large in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Please see Karl's comments in this thread.
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=140441&highlight=deeper+topic#140441
It may have something to do with your issue
Peter Devlin

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link Peter. But I don't think my issue is a copy/paste issue. I try NOT to go crazy with file to file transfers using that method. I only mentioned cut/paste in my post because I had noticed the module corrected itself when I dragged a copy of it. So if an adjustment like that corrected it, I felt obliged to select all and cut/paste within the same file (instead of to another file) and it corrected itself. Which is what led to my speculation that it may be a bug.

As for attribute management, I try to keep on top of the index numbering. The problem is working with hotlink modules, they only transfer elements and attributes in use. If the exterior envelope module had two user created brick wall composites starting at number #20 and #21, the interior unit modules had different stud walls (also user-created) at say #22 and #23, a new PLN file ready to be hosting interior modules for the typical level plans would give the first available slot (#20) to the interior wall studs. Then later on, when those levels get combined with the exterior envelope and its #20 & #21 brick composites, some numbers would have to be juggled.

I have not yet reached a full solution to this yet and I am still working on experimenting a solid method to ease this confusion. I'm open to suggestions. Maybe it requires knowing all the wall types first and indexing them. But we all know as a design proceeds, new things happen. The best thing I can think of right now is going into each module, transferring all user created composites among all modules and "synchronizing" each composite to each at its own same number among all files. Tell the team, someone creates a new composite, make sure their attribute manager is updated in each module or PLN file. I guess that will be my next attempt in resolving this issue.

But can someone answer me this - why does my module update or rebuild correctly after I do the cut/paste in file? Just now I opened up the level module, all the unit modules had the wrong composites and the first command was select all, cut/paste and problem solved for now. Why doesn't it "rebuild" like that when I open the file. Is that a bug?

[Anonymous]

A further update on my experimenting - attribute manager will NOT recognize MOD file format?

I think they should since MOD files will not take all indexed attributes with them when placed into another file. Attribute manager would've helped me copy those non-used indexed composites over into the PLN file and keep all the index numbers synchronized. Again, I find it hard to believe that we will know all of our wall types before we design our project.

Looks like we will have to abort the MOD file work. We will only treat a MOD file just like PMKs of old time. They really are dummy files. My best solution right now is to do all of our design in PLN format and then save as both PLN and MOD file to keep the master file updated. It really is annoying to save multiple times to keep both nested and hosted files updated at the same time. Perhaps I overestimated the capabilities of MOD files?

[Piotr Dobrowolski]

if You simply rename copy of your mod to pln - the Atribute manager should read Your file (I am assuming, not sure).
Best Regards,
Piotr

[Ignacio Azpiazu]

ksymons19 wrote:
A further update on my experimenting - attribute manager will NOT recognize MOD file format?[…]My best solution right now is to do all of our design in PLN format and then save as both PLN and MOD file to keep the master file updated. It really is annoying to save multiple times to keep both nested and hosted files updated at the same time. Perhaps I overestimated the capabilities of MOD files?

Every time you want to update the master file you should just publish (saving as every time is a huge waste of time and effort--that is what Publisher is meant to do/avoid) your modules from your source files. You transfer attributes between PLNs via Attribute Manager --you should also choose one file (it can be, say, the site plan file) to work as the 'Attribute Creation File' --all materials, layers, layer combos, line types, profiles, etc., get created there and transferred to the other files as necessary. If somebody messes up the attributes in some file, you can just overwrite everything from your 'Attribute Creation File'.

I put a fairly detailed description and a diagram in
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=144869&highlight=#144869

[Anonymous]

My comment about publishing modules is that after I published my unit modules into a level PLN, it broke all the hotlinks and converted into a full unit level plan with no modules. While I understand, that level plan could be published into its own module, what if I have an update on one of the unit plans? I would have to make the change, publish to level, and then again publish level to master? I could be missing a big step here but I am hesitant at this phase of design to break hotlinks between units to the master.

It's not that I am disagreeing with publishing modules, it looks like your set up works fabulously for you, I just don't see it fitting in this project. I just developed a PLN file called project Attribute Manager for the same reason you mentioned and I will have the team log new materials, composites, or profiles created and the index tag assigned to it. Then the Attribute PLN will be updated and ready for appending to other "modular" PLN files if necessary. Right now our mindset is when a unit design changes, save PLN and MOD then it will be reflected on both the level PLN and master PLN since the unit MOD is considered a nested module in master PLN. Perhaps this was the method we should have started with in the first place. Oh well, nothing ever goes smoothly the first time around in ArchiCAD! 😉

[Ignacio Azpiazu]

ksymons19 wrote:
It's not that I am disagreeing with publishing modules, it looks like your set up works fabulously for you, I just don't see it fitting in this project.

I am not sure I am following exactly what you are doing but basically if you are 'saving as' modules, especially when it is not some crazy temporary one-off thing but something you modify and update every now and then, you are not using the program right.

You can place unit-plan modules (which most preferably you published from some other unit creation pln, or even some 'unit plan creation working story' for each unit plan within the same pln) in your master and build the whole building that way. If you have repetitive stories and you would rather add another level of 'modulation' to the building at the story level (to handle the typical 3rd-to-12th story floor plan, say, working on the 3rd story only and getting the others to reproduce elements of that 3rd story, either for all layers or only for some layers), you publish that story from within your master file itself (using an ad-hoc layer combination, say, '3rd floor typical'), and place the resuting modules on the stories above. (That is, redoing the links for those typical stories would require placing the '3rd floor typical' module via Hotlink Manager once in the 4th story, and then copying with Suspend Groups unchecked and moving up the stories pasting it --command-arrow paste, command-arrow paste, etc.; there is an even faster method for pasting multistory with the thick marquee, I think, but I never took the trouble to check it since we are talking of say 20 seconds max, in the whole project setup. Writing that sentence took longer.)

After you modify a unit plan and publish it, all you need to do in the master plan is 'save', which will prompt you and allow you update all outdated modules by hitting 'Enter', and that will update all your working stories. When you want to udpate your typical, non-working (or 'partially working', say perhaps annotations, etc.) stories 4-12, from your master file you select your 3rd story Publisher item, click Publish, and save. And that's it.

[If at some point you decide that story 5 will not be typical, because it will have some variations relative to story 3: you delete the 'typical story module' in story 5, select all unit-plan+core+whatever modules in story 3, copy them, and paste them on story 5. And you delete, place, or model/annotate as needed for that new working story. If there is some other story that will be the same as 5, of course, you create a publisher item for the 5th-story-type building plate.]

[Anonymous]

OK, I think I have figured out our differences. You are saying you published your individual unit modules and then inserted them directly into the Master, correct? Then the individual & typical level modules were published from the Master and re-used in the same Master file where applicable.

And what we have done so far is more of a "pyramid" set up with the Master being at the top ready to collect all modules from below whereas it appears your set up is more "atomic" with your Master being the nucleus and modules having only a single path to the Master. Our "pyramid" set up has the levels sandwiched between unit modules and Master which is why I made that comment if I published the level plans with unit modules in place into its own level module, the unit module would no longer be nested in the level module being placed into the Master.

I will run your set up with the team and see how it goes. Maybe for this project we will continue with the pyramid set up and then use your atom (or spider web) set up for our next project involving hotlinks so that we will definitely see for ourselves pros and cons between the two and I would not be surprised if your set up gets more pros.

Thanks for your patience with me and the rest of us here. We are experienced ArchiCAD users familiar with all of the tools and programming behind it including attribute management, priorities, teamwork files, etc. It's just that this is our first project involving hotlink modules in any way and it has us looking like beginners all over again, ha. Well, with hotlinks specifically, we obviously are so again thanks for your patience and help.

[Ignacio Azpiazu]

In my attempted explanation (and in the diagram in some other thread) there is actually multiple nesting --equipment goes into unit plans, unit plans go into floors; wall panels go straight to the building story and, independently, to the unit plan files for drawing production; typical stories get published (from within the building file itself) and go into the other stories, and so on.

Each project will have its own peculiarities, and some things can get simpler and others may need to get more complicated. But the point I was trying to make is that you should definitely not 'save as module' in typical situations (it is just as wrong as manually saving your drawings as PMKs instead of publishing them).

Sometimes it is hard to represent file structures and work methods in text, so if you find something is not clear enough or doesn't seem to make a lot of sense just ask again and at some point you'll get a clear diagram or screenshot or phone conversation or sample file that makes it clear. ArchiCAD is so powerful in this respect, and makes your work so much easier and pleasant than with other programs, it would be a pain to miss that if it is only a couple of questions away.