Future ArchiCAD NEEDS multiprocessor code :(

[rm]

This may or may not be relevant to you now, but within a year it most likely will, and if your office use Apple computers, it definitely will.

Let me start with the specs on our machines: Up to just a couple months ago we had Apples top flight towers: G5 dual processor 2.7ghz with 2.5 gigs of RAM operating OSX 10.4.2.

This week I personally learned something that stunned me ( guess I was in the dark ) about how a dual processor works relative to how it uses its RAM, at least on a Mac. Forgive me if I oversimplify this, on a Mac, each processor uses half of the installed RAM at any given time. That said I have essentially 1.25 gigs of RAM to operate AC 9.0 on a machine with TWO processors and TWICE the ram. Is it the fault of GS that Apple designed their technology this way........NO!!

Let me explain further, this week we were developing a PUD ( planned unit development ) that has approximately 12 single family homes modeled with furniture, interior lighting, and site with streets and a few cars. The AC model is less than 50mgs in size.

As I added more buildings, I would often check the entire 3D model using OpenGL shaded mode. Model 1 added, no problem; Model 2 added, no problem; Model 3 added, no problem >>>>model 7 added, slowing processing down; model 12 added - brings AC to its knees.......This is BULL$*&#$$. I use Apples fastest machines with ample RAM and I can't process this relatively small development model.

Then I realized that by checking Apples' Activity Monitor application, I could see how much real and virtual memory was being used during the processing of the AC model, or any other task for that matter. I saw the model in its current state max out the real available RAM. I decide to add 2 more gigs of RAM to the machine with this particular model knowing I will only get the benefit of 1 gig ( you must add RAM in pairs on a G5 - again Apples issue here ) and guess what, AC STILL coughs up a lung and dies trying to process the model. NOW I AM REALLY AGGRAVATED, and I decided to put a SOS call into GS tech support. Two days later I recieved an email from GS Tech instructing me to check my video card on my WINDOWS machine even-though my message was explicit about using MACS.....Thank GS for that helpful hint!!!

I decided to add 2 more gigs of RAM bringing the machine up to 6.5gigs!!! Process, process, process.........crap out again!!!!!! Switch the rendering engine to the AC engine, go to wire frame where I cannot check the model properly, and export to Artlantis R.

WHAT a JOKE!!!!!!

Long story short, all our projects we produce are heavily modeled and complex but usually one building at a time. GS has been silent about switching their code to multiprocessor capable......and Apple this week delivered its first two machines with the new Duo Core Intel processors.....of which all Apple products are changing to. I suspect we will see the PC vendors follow ( they usually do - sorry could not resist - oh yeah, I forgot Apple switched to Intel 😉 ) and switch to Duo Processor chips too. Bottom line, GS MUST change their code to take advantage of this computing power.

Many of you may or may not know this, but GS is currently making a big push to General Contractors to buy into BIM with their Constructor Software which is essentially AC with an integrated estimating program. As models and BIM are becoming less of a catch phrase to sell software and more of a reality, GS needs to offer software that can keep pace with the hardware.......they are way behind that curve currently.

Bottom line, for all you "power modelers" be you Mac or Window fans, you better start letting GS know that they need to get off the stick and start truly optimizing their software. If a 50 meg model on a fast machine with 6.5gigs of RAM can take down the machine, this will limit future acceptance of their BIM software.

BTW, Artlantis R takes advantage of both of the processors and up to eight processors in one machine. Rumors are that Apple will be delivering their next iteration of towers as a dual - Duo Core configuration which of course is 4 processors......how would you like to have that power in a box, and not be able to access it?!?!

In case you were wondering, we have hundreds of gigs of space on the hardrives too!

thanks for reading this!

[TomWaltz]

Amen, brother.

[Anonymous]

i also encountered similar issues while developing a design for a 20 unit condo resort. i have what i would consider a robust machine, but not a workstation, in the classical definition. from what i understand, a lot of preview work in 3D is dependent on your GPU, or video card. i now have a 7800 GTX card for my PC. While it is robust, it is not a workstation card, and while i have never used or demo-ed a workstation card, everything i read tells me that these cards (ie. NVIDIA quadro FX) will make up the performance difference.

I do agree, that GS should be more transparent, and in fact actively promote serious solutions to users who want the BEST possible 3D performance hardware. Why won't GS list the NVIDIA and ATI card's performance on AC? Solidworks, 3DS Max, and the others have their standards. Why not AC?

[rm]

LINZ,

In fairness to GS, listing performance of video cards with AC is almost irrelevant to most users.

What would be relevant would be optimized code, for multi-processing machines. The problem I described herein is a processing problem, not a video display problem. It has been explained to me that the actual calculation for the model occurs on the processor. The video card processes the image.

In my case, on less complex models, AC can process the model in shaded mode. We use substantial machines by anyones standard, and they far exceed the min. requirements on GS website.

[Anonymous]

rm

i re-read your earlier submission. that explains why Artlantis R handles my larger models better than AC.

thanks for the revelation.

[henrypootel]

I think the reason that GS doesn't bother with any video card benchmarking is beacuse you can tell how fast a graphics card will be with archicad by its price. The more expensive, the better it will be(usually).

The OpenGL engine that ArchCAD uses is very basic compared to modern games that use all the GPU's functionality. For example, Nvidia's Geforce7800 uses version 3 pixel and vertex shaders, ultrashadow 2, HD mpg and wmv acceleration, and supports HDR lighting.
ArchiCAD uses none of these headline features. The ArchiCAD opengl view is about as complicated as Quake2. It doesn't even have antialiasing!

The only reason that your Graphics card gets pushed at all by AC, is because the models can get so massive. The GeForce 2 MX supports everything that ArchiCAD can throuw at it, its just too slow(old=slow). As a general rule, the speed of Graphics cards goes up as the price goes up. HalfLife 2 runs faster on ATI video cards than it does on Nvidia ones, but this is only beacuse of better optimised shaders etc.. which ArchiCAD doesn't care about.

If you want a nice fast video card for AC, opt for whatever the currently mid-range card is(a 6600 or an x700), and this will give you all the performance you need. If you don't use the 3D window much, or only ever draw smallish resdiential-type buildings, then the budget-line card will do quite nicely(6200 or x300). That said, i still use a trusty Geforce2 MX with 32Mb and i don't get too annoyed at it.

[stefan]

You should not compare Games to CAD models:

Games are optimized a lot: pre-processed, low-polygon counts, massive object culling: what you don't see doesn't get processed; usually in small corridors, limiting the total amount of geometry to display.
The advanced shaders will eventually show up in CAD, one day or another, but not today. They are barely being integrated in 3D applications such as 3ds max and Maya, since these are the applications that are used to generate geometry for these games.

CAD-programs care less about visual appearance (e.g. anti-aliasing, advanced shaders) and more about displaying large amounts of geometry.

Professional workstation cards (the expensive Quadro and FireGL and similar) have certified drivers, more thorough stability testing and better support for Wireframes amongst others. For regular users, you can get along with any decent medium gaming card.

If you would export your complete ArchiCAD scene into a game engine, it would not be as fast as you would expect.

Sure, Half-Life 2 and Unreal and others display fairly complex scenes, but these are not CAD-levels. These are finetuned models, where every single polygon is thrown out that doesn't show up in the level.

-----------------------

I do believe Graphisoft should take advantage of all available CPU and Memory in the machine, regardless of it being a PC or a Mac or something in between...

[Anonymous]

I want to know really. It is not joke...

Why do people buy Apple?

[stefan]

samsung wrote:
I want to know really. It is not joke...

Why do people buy Apple?

This discussion is not about Apple vs. PC.
(And I'm afraid this kind of question doesn't lend itself to clean and civil discussions....)

ArchiCAD doesn't support multiple processors, neither on Mac OSX, neither on Windows.

[rm]

stefan wrote:
This discussion is not about Apple vs. PC.
(And I'm afraid this kind of question doesn't lend itself to clean and civil discussions....)

ArchiCAD doesn't support multiple processors, neither on Mac OSX, neither on Windows.

Stefan,

Thank you for bringing the "discussion" back on track. Some people just can't seem to stay on topic. As you CLEARY state ARCHICAD DOESN'T support multiple processors on either platform..........THAT IS THE POINT Samsung!

Now hopefuly GS is reading this closer than some of the posters here.