Component Level Design Workflows - Conversation & feedback

[James B]

Hi All,

Now in Archicad, most design and data are handled at the element level - assigning properties, using Graphic Overrides or setting renovation status are a few examples.

To express design intent and extract data at a more detailed level, the component or skin level requires further data and flexibility. We already visualise these skins, have Offset Modifiers for Profiles to create smart parametric extrusions, and Component/Surface Schedules to extract data.

We plan to further develop the component/skin level of elements and expand existing functionality in that area, so we are exploring more about what you need. Some questions:

• What type of data do you need to store in components/skins that may be separate or different to existing Building Material properties?
• How is this data used and presented in documentation and schedules?
• Renovation of components, are similar for the same composite/profile? Or mostly unique for all placed elements separately?
• Modelling flexibility of components, in which common situations are you resorting to workarounds, like stacking elements, that existing composites/profiles with modifiers can't achieve?
• Visualisation of components, in which situations do components need be visualised differently compared to the whole element? Such as requirement for submission to highlight structural skins.

As we progress in this area, your input will be invaluable to understand priorities and our direction moving forward. Thanks in advance.

[Tim Ball]

Just a couple of tips for working with complex profiles that you may not have used:

1. You can copy/paste elements from the 3D Plan or section into the profile editor, then use that as a source for materials and locations of fills
2. You can draw over an element in 3D using fills and then copy paste them into the CP editor

[abdelaziz]

1 _ you can also select the composite and in the info zone change the composite to a complex profile directly

2_ 2 draw several composite walls basic walls select all the walls and merge them into a single complex profile 😉

[James B]

Hi thanks for the feedback. We're not only looking at components in Complex Profiles, but also hierarchical elements and Composites.

For element ID of a component, if you could access Building Material properties (including ID), would that solve your need? Any examples would be appreciated how you need to use this type of data.

Renovation for complements, you mentioned as being nice, but not a must have in your workflow? You don't use Renovation?

Graphic Overrides for components, you mentioned would be great. Can you provide some workflow examples on how you'd override parts of elements and for which types of outputs?

Thanks.

[maro]

Hi James,
Yes renovation filter enabled for each Component would be great .
Then under Composites - New Skin start from Existing Skin (there is overlaping Demolished and New Skins)
Thanks
Marek

[James B]

Hi Marek,

Can you outline a few examples in projects, and what current workflows you've used for renovation at skin/component level? Thanks.

[maro]

Hi James,

Now by Reconstructions Projects (additional insulation of existing structures) by Composites is necessary use combination of renovation status and Partial Structure Display
- for existing plan - hide new status and show only Core in Partial Structure Display
- for planed status - show New status and show Entire model in Partial Structure Display (also Finished Skin showed - used like additional new Insulation by exist Composite construction).
Now not possible work with Project where is neccesary also some Skins from construction remove - demolished before added new Skins
Is necessary by Composites/Profiles add the Renovation Status for Skin/Component.
Also is necessary extend settings for Column tool like abdelaziz suggest - Veneer with setting for Renovation Status - or there use Profile from Components for Column where is Renovation Status set for Venner - after extend about this in Profile manager.

Thanks

Marek

[maro]

Hi James,

I mean like this overlapping Skins by Composites (or Component by Profile)- demolished and new status, if it could work it would be great

and also, what was mentioned there already, have the Modifiers for height for each Skins in Composites would be also great

Thanks

Marek

[James B]

Thanks Marek for your additional feedback, and diagram. Apologies for the long time to get back to this 🙂

[Miha_M]

• What type of data do you need to store in components/skins that may be separate or different to existing Building Material properties? Composite elements are a nice shortcut, but not applicable in refurbishing or reconstruction projects. We need each composite skin control (renovation status, graphic overrides) and properties/classification enabled. Here I would also suggest a radical change for windows and doors functionality. A window/door element should become a combination of a library element and a opening element, where the opening element's functionality could be expanded into so many things we would like to use...
• How is this data used and presented in documentation and schedules? Here I would suggest a serious schedules upgrade - addressable cells and the ability to use expressions. Combined with the ability to list separate composite skins and windows/doors with or without their corresponding openings this would open up a whole new world of data control and output. We also urgently need better control of graphic presentation of elements in schedules.
• Renovation of components, are similar for the same composite/profile? Or mostly unique for all placed elements separately? Unique for all placed elements.
• Modelling flexibility of components, in which common situations are you resorting to workarounds, like stacking elements, that existing composites/profiles with modifiers can't achieve? With workarounds almost anything can be done, but it's sad that this needs to be done with "workarounds". I mostly have to stack two or more elements to get what I need. I think the current composites and profiles should get reengineered into a new workflow with stacked elements by default.
• Visualisation of components, in which situations do components need be visualised differently compared to the whole element? Such as requirement for submission to highlight structural skins. I did not have any need to visualize such components in the past, but this option would be a great addition and could be used on many occasions (presentation to clients, during construcion works, FM, etc.)

[James B]

Thanks for the feedback and comments.

For renovation, what are some examples you're commonly finding in projects?

Can you explain some of the "workarounds" you mention? For the 2 or more elements you currently stack, in which situations do these occur?

For visualising components, how would you present for clients/during construction these components? Thanks.

[abdelaziz]

Hi James 

for example, this happened to us in renovation projects where it was necessary to intervene on the insulation and the exterior finish and it was necessary to break down the wall which constitutes the exterior wall into several walls and superimpose the part which represents the insulation and the finish exterior, the first represents the existing wall to be demolished and the second is the wall to be projected, the problem in this operation is that it was necessary to propose several solutions to the customer and according to the price and the performance of the products he had to choose a solution

[Miha_M]

A full renovation requires stripping everything, only the structural elements remain (or get smaller changes, openings, etc.) present. This is why in our current workflow we have to model every horizontal and vertical structural element without the use of composite structures and we have to be very careful of where and how we use custom profiles. Every wall skin (cladding, insulation, air gap, substructure, etc.) or horizontal structure above or below a load bearing structural slab (or any other kind of horizontal load bearing structure) has to be modeled as a separate composite or multi-layered (stacked) non load bearing structure.

The "workarounds" include most such composite and non-composite groups of elements, where we need to model endings or connections to other elements - those are almost never a simple flat edge of a composite structure, so in most cases we need to model custom profiled elements. In such cases the BIM workflow gets lost, as one can assign IDs and properties on element basis only, but here we can have multiple skins and profiles within one element's ID and properties.

As for one example - for building construction and building commissioning I wanted to use GO to show each and every element related to it's fire resistance rating. I couldn't, as many parts have been modeled inside composite on/or custom profiled elements.

Using two or more stacked vertical elements requires workarounds with windows and door placing as well as we need to place additional empty openings for each such element, number depending on stacked skins used.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that we need to establish a full model before and after renovation, as we need to quantify all demolition works as well. 

[kmitotk]

• What type of data do you need to store in components/skins that may be separate or different to existing Building Material properties? 

We currently don't have a proper place to put the properties/specifications of the finish materials with negligible thickness such as paint/coating/wallpaper. We normally use Surfaces for these materials but as we all know custom properties are not available with Surfaces. We wish we can somehow include these materials in Building Materials and use them in composites/profiles. Currently if you tried to do that you'd end up having infinite variations of basically the same composites/profiles which is not practical. Maybe we should make the outermost skin overwritable to another BM at the instance level? Please address this problem and come up with a good solution. I believe all the material information should be located in Building Materials so we can centrally manage them in one place. We should be able to list all the materials and their specs in a single schedule.

[abdelaziz]

as I said in my previous message, this problem can be solved by the GO, a rule that allows to replace the skin finish according to the surface applied on the interior or exterior part of the wall for example

[kmitotk]

Thanks abdelaziz for responding to my comment.

I saw your previous comments. It looks to me that your idea will solve the graphic representation issues of the skin finish which is great, but how would it solve the finish material property/specs problems? I'm raising the material data management issues that we have now with paint/coating/wallpaper.

[abdelaziz]

Hi, kmitotk

I think the integration of formulas (Logic) in the material properties could solve a lot of problems 😉

[kmitotk]

I would imagine that if GS makes expressions available for the building material properties then you might be able to set up multiple finish properties in a building material and come up with an expression which lets you select one at the instance level. That would be useful for some cases but not good enough. In reality, same paint/wallpaper would be applied on many different building materials which means you'd have to set up and maintain the exact same finish paint/wallpaper properties in each of those building materials. I'm sure a setup like that could easily get messed up. I think paint/wallpaper should be materials of their own so we can list them along side all the other materials and manage.

[abdelaziz]

Hi Kmitotk

why i want to have the expressions in the materials? to modify a BMat property from an element property directly, for example if I have a concrete material without a texture and I apply a texture to it at the element level I could retrieve the name of the texture in the property of the element and the expression in the material could for example give a dynamic description to the material (name of the material_name of the surface)

[James B]

Hello Kei thanks for the comments.

Can you describe further, about the types of information you would want on the surface level vs building material level, and where/how you'd want to output that information? Some examples can help.

And are you using Component or Surface schedules to output this data currently?

Thanks.

[abdelaziz]

Hi James 

for example, this happened to us in renovation projects where it was necessary to intervene on the insulation and the exterior finish and it was necessary to break down the wall which constitutes the exterior wall into several walls and superimpose the part which represents the insulation and the finish exterior, the first represents the existing wall to be demolished and the second is the wall to be projected, the problem in this operation is that it was necessary to propose several solutions to the customer and according to the price and the performance of the products he had to choose a solution

the other problem we had was the management of openings when reconstructing the wall components in the event that the size of the window had to be changed, it had to be done on all the components and on all the options

[abdelaziz]

for example another project where the client has an adjoining facade so he has interior insulation on this facade and once he has acquired the adjoining land he wants to change the interior insulation with exterior insulation to gain thermal performance and gain in the useful interior surface, proceed as for the first example