Converting 3D objects not made in AC for use in AC

[rm]

I'm guessing this question is for a GDL pro. I find there to be a shortage of real & true furniture objects available for free or purchase to use in AC that are made specifically for AC.

Now, there are a ton of real manufacturers' 3D furniture objects out there that can be imported into AC as an object, then saved.

PROBLEM: Unless I am missing how to do this, there seems to be no parameters for materials. In otherwords, the beauty of an AC library part is the ability to change parameters of materials. That is a chair can have a material for the seat, and another material for the legs, which then can be rendered realistically. But everytime I import a dwg object or a 3DS objects, they come in with only one material for all components of the object.......bummer!

1. Am I missing an obvious setting in the translation that preserves material settings from DWG or 3Ds objects.

2. If what I am asking can't easily be done, is Graphisoft working on translators that will solve the problem.

Thanks in advance,

RM

Mac OS10.3
AC 8.0/8.1

[Paul King]

Hi RM

My imediate reaction is - when first learning ArchiCAD, why did you not leave your 3D animations to people who were already good at them?

As a student, why did you not give up your studies and leave the practice of Architecture altogether to the experts?

At one point you surely must not have known how to do anything you can do well now.

GDL is surely just another one of the tools/skills you can learn to get a result - you can certianly work around ignorance in this (or any) area, or pay someone else to have learned it for you - but it is an arbitrary choice to pick GDL in particular as best left to those who are already good at it

It is pretty unfair to acuse Karl of being unfocussed or unhelpful whrn it is you who have apparently decided (as a matter of policy!) that that ignorance is preferred over knowlege in an area outside your firm's current current competency

You have every right and justification to limit your focus to your existing competencies within ArchiCAD, but please respect those who have chosen to learn more of the product and are willing to share their insights here!


"Karl, forgive me, but how the {censored!!!!} do you know what I have, or have not tried with the program. Have you seen a set of the contract documents my office produces, or the animations, or renderings we produce...that is where my office places its emphasis of effort on, not scripting GDL. We chose to leave that to people who are good at it."

"Try staying focused and being helpful in your future responces, as you normally are, and maybe you won't get a reply like this one in the future."

Regards,
Architects Design Forum, Ltd.


RM

[david nicholson-cole]

There are some very interesting issues here. In particular, I have been collaborating recently with the Architects School in Aarhus who are having a vigorous programme of working with industry to make GDL industrialised building components. So far it's started with undergraduate students, assisted by their teachers, making objects like Prefab Bathrooms, Walling panels, flooring, stairs etc. I have spend 4 days of teaching time with that group, and this is the start of a long collaboration programme. The Danish government funds the start up, so the manufacturers can collaborate without obligation or cost - and come in as funding partners if they like what they see. This is a very exciting prospect, another way to get GDL into industry. Ask me more about this very excellent programme.
GS are not funding it at all, by the way. it's being done because the group of people involved have a deep conviction that the Parametric process is the way to go.

GDL can be used simply to simulate existing ranges of objects, parametrically. We know that already.
But.... 200% more powerful than that is the power of GDL to enable Customised manufacturing, whereby the user/designer can do their own configuration of a product following parametric rules, and the manufacturer then makes the product from the resulting GDL form, eg a custom window, or a prefab bathroom, where the volume can be in enough numbers to justify production.
>>>>david

Jeffrey wrote:
IMNSHO GS should not be scripting objects at all. They should however be marketing its products, more aggressively than they currently have been and currently are, to manufacturers of building products, furniture, etc. If GS can't see the advantages to the manufacturer (not to mention itself) in using its products, how are they going to be able to persuade them to provide their offering in a GDL library format-!? I probably have over a million dwg/dxf drawings of specific manufactured items and I've never received a single one created by Autodesk. If GS really believes in the concept they pioneered why can't they get this going? Personally I don't think they have another 20 years to ponder the future of their concept. The ArchiCAD vs Revit (whoever) issue is going to be won in the real world; whoever has the most support (Family? Libraries or GDL Libraries) will eventually move to the top of the most poplar CAD list regardless how much the program may draw into the mouth with a force produced by movement of the lips and tongue.

This remains the single most neglected area by GS if they don't do something soon another BIM type application will. The longer they sit and wait for their "big bang" marketing theory to happen they'll find themselves choking on the dust of someone else who actually believed in the solutions they have to offer.

[Karl Ottenstein]

Djordje wrote:
While Truss Joist was mentioned as NOT having GDL libraries, at the same time you have Trust Joist people here on the list spewing out wonderful GDL?!?!?! A case of the left hand not knowing what the right one is doing?

The many TJ guys here can answer that one (left hand now knowing...), if they're working this week.

I don't know how TJ could be more 'up front' with making their GDL library available: Just go to www.trusjoist.com and click "downloads" ... and you get the following screen - GDL Object Library right there in black and beige.

Happy holidays to all!

Karl

[Djordje]

Now:

Let's remember - it's a season to be merry!

I understand that Robert's (BTW, rm is Robert Mariani, a talker well known from years back) comments on GDL may sound harsh to some. It is his right to decide what he will or will not use in his practice, and also his right to air his views in the forum. We all have our experience to draw from.

It is also everybody else's right to comment. Do not bash a dissenting view that does not agree with yours - keep the arguments OBJECTIVE and CIVIL, not personal. Bashing a person is also not allowed by the Etiquette of the Forum.

Please cool down a little, it is getting a tad too personal.

It is in interest of all of us that the actions like the one described by DNC get much more frequent - all who script GDL will get more exposure and work, people who just like to buy will have a choice.

If it is snowing outside, take a walk to cool down before you respond to anything that maybe ticked you off. I can't, as there is no snow here, so take a snowy walk for me too!

Your horrible moderator,

[David Collins]

rm: David you started out fine....

I know, I usually do, but then things just go off someplace screwey....

I think GDL is great, and if you produce an object that is worth buying for my projects, I WILL buy it and use it....

Cool! But any object I script will be absolutely useless to you. It will reflect my design, my drafting standards and use details strictly based on the way we build things around here. The GDL I do has absolutely no mass market value whatsoever.

I could go on for weeks about .. how many architects are hacks and don't understand the principals of scale, massing, proportion, volume, or have the ability to run a viable profitable practice.......

Hey! I resent that! Just because I'm totally clueless about how to run a viable profitable practice doesn't mean I'm a hack!

[david nicholson-cole]

david wrote:
I have been collaborating recently with the Architects School in Aarhus who are having a vigorous programme of working with industry to make GDL industrialised building components.

To add more detail to my previous contribution,

The project in Denmark has government funding, because the basic idea of parametrisation of building components is good for the economy. And as a research project, its a good learning experience for the undergrads and is providing a path for a phd for a postgrad. and it moves part of the School from the usual architectural student obsession with form to something very challenging and practical and requiring a lot of logical thinking.

Industry are involved as partners, but in the first stage, their only formal committment is to provide information, enable the students to make factory visits, and allow the equivalent of a man-week (or more if they wish) of staff time to act as a client to the students and brief them on the systems analysis behind the products. The Students learn a lot from this. The manufacturers are under no obligation to take ArchiCAD or to use the library objects. But the creators of this project (the staff at the school) hope that GDL will prove itself to be worth going further with and already 2 manufacturers have undertaken to contribute funds and take it further. The staff had me over to help for 3 solid days (unfortunately too late, my contribution would have been better about 2 weeks earlier) and I was amazed at the maturity of the work, the ambition of the tasks attempted, and the quality of what they were producing.

My primary contribution is that they hadnt got, but needed the hang of graphic hotspots, UI, arrays or texture mapping - all vital things for advanced objects. But they had done a very good job with Cutpolya, Polylines, masking, stretchiness, popdown menus with many choices, and other very important techniques.

[david nicholson-cole]

Jeffrey wrote:
GS has informed me that GDL Alliance is only interested in the "over $100,000.00 projects" even though the majority of manufacturers of products that are frequently used don't have a library large enough to warrant that size of an investment.

Youve made the error of saying that the GDL Alliance only helps people for more than $100,000. This could make a big misunderstanding.
The GDL alliance is a private learned institution of GDL authors and does not charge people anything. We also run a free internet conference called GDL-Talk.
He/you must have been meaning GDL Central.

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone,

I stand corrected, having checked my correspondences, GDL Central IS, indeed, what I was referring to and NOT GDL Alliance as I stated. My apologies for the misrepresentation.

As for my comment about TJ, it wasn't saying that they aren't available, as indeed they are, and I know exactly where to find them, but the people representing TJ products (those who we contact for information) are not aware of them and do not distribute them as readily as they do for other CAD platforms. To me I find this a serious disadvantage to GS and us, the user. If an AC user is unaware of its existence and inquires to the company (TJ etc.) and they can't identify AC and/or direct us to the library it will appear to the "powers that be" that they wasted their time and money so there isn't a need to continue offering them or recommending this format to their associates.

Duane keeps making points that are examples of why GDL should be the format of choice, the GDL Adapter makes the object easier to use on many apps while retaining the appropriate data for either. IMO the reason that it hasn't "taken off" is GS's hesitance to invest a little more in promoting the concept and its successes.

As for the comment about Entourage this is not what we are looking for, Entourage is primarily used for "unnecessary" illustrative extras, you drew the building yourself, the BIM was in your head, you still had to extract the info to paper. CAD has changed the drawing board and, for many, it's about to change again. GS pioneered and sold us on a concept that set a high standard that, for whatever reason, they are having a hard time promoting. Personally, I think this would be like selling a free all-you-can-eat buffet to someone who hasn't eaten a month.

Having seen your work & successes (Duane & DNC) it's apparent that you both do what you do very well, in many instances you apparently go above and beyond what many of your colleagues would ever consider. If GS had someone who would pursue this avenue for them as ardently as either one of you pursue your endeavors, there is no doubt in my mind, GS & AC would soon be household names, or at least the industry standard. Unfortunately what GS desperately needs at this point cannot be done on a "part-time" basis and neither of you could possibly have the time to take on every task yourselves but have definitely provided GS with a solid foundation from which it can & should build on.

The first question I'm asked when I consult with someone, in regards to them becoming more efficient with thier use of AC, is "what area will benefit us the most?". My reply is always the same, "learn the basics of GDL". Having read all the manuals available I recommend the Cookbook, I'm still amazed that GS has yet to include this, most valuable, book as part of its hardcopy documentation, especially now that it doesn't include the GDL manual. I have a copy of "Making Objects with AC", but have found most people find the Cookbook a little less threatening (formal) and helps them to start thinking out-of-the-box a little quicker.

No, not everyone wants to use the same furniture as the next "guy", however, if it's not custom furniture there are apparently plenty of others who do, or it wouldn't be available for purchase. If Steelcase or whoever chooses to provide GDL objects they should represent its products as they want to represent them and contain the technical data for the specified product, no more no less. There are many times I decide to spec something because the quality is good and the manufacturer made it easy for me to do so.

In general the statements made about it being difficult to script an object that would be useful to the masses is only (IMHO) partially correct. These objects are usually the purchased generic type that are trying to be too many things for too many people and don't represent a specific item, therefore have way too many parameters for the user to have to deal with. After all is said and done, the user now has to hope they can include the manufacturer technical data into EXISTING parameter fields that are the same as those being referred to in the other objects of the library AND are already set up for correct calculations.

A manufacturer would only need to provide a representation of its product, WYSIWYG. I have a library of balusters and newels; one object represents one style, not many styles as is what I've found to be typical with purchased objects. You select them by the part number, as you would in the catalog, which dictates the size (as available), you can then trim it to fit (top &/or bottom) as required. If you choose custom there are more parameters available and your parts list will indicate a custom size (and what that size is) is needed, all others are listed by their part number, no room for error and very simple. The selection of parameters should be EXACTLY the same as if you were selecting these items from the spec books. If it only come in two sizes that should be the only editable parameter.

In closing, I believe that GS has the best solutions available for our industry, now it's time to move to the next level. I've referred to SolidWorks in the past and believe that AC can achieve the same success. They do not create a single object for use with their program, yet the user can create complex machines and mechanical assemblies without having to create a single object of their own. SolidWorks achieved this by marketing the program to everyone within the industry, large and small. Manufacturers create their own "libraries" and provide them for free to other users as a way to get their parts specified and therefore sell more product. I have yet to meet a vendor who's ever heard of, let alone, uses AC.

[david nicholson-cole]

Thankyou for your long and very interesting response. I am working on a new cookbook, not just on DTP, but am making some challenging new objects that exploit new features - in particular, i shall have to adopt a Dwight style of nomenclature and rename myself David Hotspottleson-Cole, or "england's most hotspot obsessed architect".
Actually the OMWAC was written to be non-threatening. But as its rather wordy, and dates from 2000, its definitely in need to revision. The Cookbook relies on clipping every topic to one page whenever possible, two sometimes, and more than 2 occasionally, which makes it easier to tackle topics individually. i see no reason to change this approach!

Jeffrey wrote:
The first question I'm asked when I consult with someone, in regards to them becoming more efficient with thier use of AC, is "what area will benefit us the most?". My reply is always the same, "learn the basics of GDL". Having read all the manuals available I recommend the Cookbook, I'm still amazed that GS has yet to include this, most valuable, book as part of its hardcopy documentation, especially now that it doesn't include the GDL manual. I have a copy of "Making Objects with AC", but have found most people find the Cookbook a little less threatening (formal) and helps them to start thinking out-of-the-box a little quicker.

[Anonymous]

Karl wrote:

The many TJ guys here can answer that one (left hand now knowing...), if they're working this week.

I don't know how TJ could be more 'up front' with making their GDL library available: Just go to www.trusjoist.com and click "downloads" ... and you get the following screen - GDL Object Library right there in black and beige.

Thanks for the info, Karl. We are working this week...

One important item to note about finding the Trus Joist Object Library. Is that is is available only within the US site under Residential downloads. As we add more product lines, it will available under the appropriate download section. So far, nearly 1000 people have found the link and downloaded the library.

Jeffrey wrote:
As for my comment about TJ, it wasn't saying that they aren't available, as indeed they are, and I know exactly where to find them, but the people representing TJ products (those who we contact for information) are not aware of them and do not distribute them as readily as they do for other CAD platforms. To me I find this a serious disadvantage to GS and us, the user. If an AC user is unaware of its existence and inquires to the company (TJ etc.) and they can't identify AC and/or direct us to the library it will appear to the "powers that be" that they wasted their time and money so there isn't a need to continue offering them or recommending this format to their associates.
.

I am sorry that you were unable to get the correct information about our object library from another TJ associate. The GDL development is not a company wide initiative. In fact, the object have been developed by a small research group within the TJ Residential group. Actually, there are only three of us. We have tried to educate our Company, but there are lots of initiatives and 57,000 people within Weyerhaeuser. We have created flyers for our field personnel (attached), created a press release with GS, posted the link to both AC-talk and GDL-talk, and attended numerous building shows. With all this you’re bound to find some people within our organization that don’t know about GDL and ArchiCAD.

The final point I would like to make is that everyone has assumed that Trus Joist set out to create GDL objects – wrong. Our group has created an ArchiCAD based floor panel fabrication tool (TJ-PanelMate). Throughout the development of that tool, we have created sophisticated GDL objects and API’s to create a new application for our customers. We released GDL object to the public since we had learned so much from these newsgroups and the people in the GDL community (DNC, Karl, and many more). The GDL objects are much less powerful than are internal objects and are distributed for free from our website. The intent was only to provide the already developed tools to the community.

As you can see from the thread “GDL Copyright,” we have some severe reservations about releasing unprotected objects to the public (our only recourse is the ULA). Without the support of the community and the stubbornness of our developers, our object would never have been released – and we already had the library developed. I think anyone is kidding themselves if they think lots of manufacturers will start developing objects on their own. It is going to take a whole lot more of education (GS) and demand to get there (AC users).

Thank you all for your continued support of the TJ Object Library and TJ products.

Bill Parsons, P.E.
OVE Systems and Applications Engineer