ArchiCAD and Revit Evaluation Criteria

[Anonymous]

Greetings,

We're a mid-size architectural firm (50-75 people) located on the East Coast of the US specializing in commercial, educational, higher education, retail, and corporate markets. We've been using AutoCAD and ADT for quite some time now with SketchUp being used almost exclusively for all SD and DD imaging. We've come to the conclusion that these tools have out lived their usefulness.

We've started an evaluation process looking at both ArchiCAD and Revit. Our team (8 people) will be professionally trained by outside consultants so they can competently evaluating both tools.

We need suggestions on what type of information gets included in our evaluation criteria. Has anyone gone through this process with both programs? If so, can you give us any tips or directions on what we should be looking for? What are the current advantages and pitfalls to using either program?

Is ArchiCAD generally better than Revit?

Thanks I advance for any replies. We’ll keep everyone updated on our evaluation process.

mj2

[Dennis Lee]

Hooray, Revit won! Undisputedly, by far the most objective criteria and scoring, (from the most objetive point of view too! ) i think this excel sheet and the scoring system should be sold to autodesk for their marketing efforts...

Seriously, refs, what drives you to do this? It's very obvious you are done w/ the evaluating of the two programs long time ago. Why keep "evaluating" over and over, and of all places, here? Wait... are you trying to convert us??? You are not doing too good of a job then. It seems the more effort you put in to try to make it look objective and "without any prejudices", the more it seems the other way, actually.

[Anonymous]

Well, this is just swell. Not only you are asking us not to cheat, but you cheat yourself. Sample?

Interoperability? Revit compatible with Revit Structures and Revit MEP. Nice. What about Tekla, SDS/2, and bunch of other formats? IFC in Revit just suck. No support for slanted or profile walls, or non square openings. Compatibility with Autocad very limited (no layers support). Importing block as families? No? So sad. Revit Structures or MEP? Who is using it? It's like ABS for ADT. Mostly worthless. And by the way you forgot about Constructor with its MEP systems.

GDL vs Families? Are you talking about Ease of creation on simple objects, or features? Ooo you are probably referring to this simple parametrical objects, but at the same time you are forgetting that AC users have most of needed parametric objects already in standard library, and they don't need to create parametric objects (can but don't need) and creation of not parametrical Objects is as simple.

BIM A to Z. Hmm in your opinion of course. Can you define TRUE BIM? In my eyes AC is as true BIM as Revit. But more important is how from model you create set of Documents. This is where true BIM shows its face. Both software are equally good here.

Add-ons. Say what? I need some external addons? How is that that during my over 10 years practice with AC (from small interiors to couple hundred mil $ hospitals) I never used one? Interesting. I mean I was testing some of them, even found some of the useful, but somehow never incorporated one. On the other hand, thousends of additional addons don't make 3dsmax a bad software. I think access to alternative ways to do something is actually advantage. Do you have some good addons for Revit?

Export from Revit to dwg better than from ADT? How? ADT's native file format is dwg? This area in Revit actually really suck. No layer make Revit not compatible with National Standard.

Revit actually has nothing like Constructor at this time, but at the same time Constructor is not AC.

Learning time better for Revit? Not in my experience. Somehow my guys adopt easier to Constructor (workflow exactly the same as AC). After creating a wall an dimension comes time with reflections how to a sheet out of it, and here AC just flies.
Migration to Revit from any package is a nightmare. The way of work differs from anything else. Lack of layers make things even worst. To much of software intervention of what you do. No way to transfer standards.

I think both systems are quite good with edge still strong on AC side. Teamwork, working hotlinks etc.

[TomWaltz]

I'd like to throw out there that with 30 licenses over 4 years, we've never needed at add-on. We tried the CAD Image ones, but never really put them to use.

It's nice to know that we CAN buy add-ons though. Where's the 3rd party market for Revit?

[Bricklyne Clarence]

Courtesy warning to new visitors:


........please do not feed the troll......

I repeat: Do not feed the troll!


Thank you all for your cooperation. Nothing more to see here.
move along.......

[Anonymous]

My Dear Miki

... have you done the test I proposed? Have you read Laura's post? Have you crossed both posts to understand the resemblances? 😉

If you have done an advanced Revit training, you should already know that Revit offers the possibility to import almost all from CAD (blocks) and more, we can create families in 2D and 3D with these CAD objects.

You still misinterpret everything and you still raise the same questions, always in terms of defining the "TRUE BIM". Hope this is the last time I talk about this. I use the term TRUE BIM in 2 situations:

1- In workarounds: when we use "forced techniques" to solve a modelling problem. Attention: I'm not against workarounds, but I don't think is reasonable to use this type of "ramp" to build up walls under stairs (in spiral), because we cannot cut off the wall through the stair?!?!?!?, This is a simple technique and ingenious to solve the problem in Revit, but to me this is not BIM. I'm not going to use ArchiCad's example otherwise I'll be attacked again...

2- I equally used TRUE BIM to designate a perfect workflow "Architecture --> Structural/MEP --> Construction --> Life Cycle Management" ..... The dream of any BIM, the "TRUE BIM".
Got it?

In terms of ADT/DWG -vs REVIT/DWG try modelling in ADT, choose one section and then export to 2D, try editing the Hatchs … you cannot do it, in Revit you can!

In relation to GDL/Families, to you, it makes more sense to give a higher score to GDL (in your on words is not necessary in Archicad!) you heard it well: it's not needed! Take this out of your program. The same thing for the need of Add-ons… just take a look at the help topics to notice that, for example, the same stairs that you take 2 minutes to do in Revit… not even in the AC specific model you are able to do it….. I don't want to start a quarrel but I was provoked and replied…


I appeal to all… please make the test 😉

.

[Anonymous]

1. Laura has structured, identified and qualified her selection criteria.

2. I've just used Laura's sequence and made a simple exercise, scored with some "quantity values" those criteria, explaining my arguments, based in my experience.

3. Laura made her comments and no one criticised her. When, I raised my post, everyone started attacking me again…. Why?

4. Instead of trying to make this tread go down, why don't you try to make this test? If you think a certain criteria is similar for both software, tie the score (1=1); if you think one has advantage over the other, score a difference (2-1), if you like I can send you a spreadsheet in Excel which already has the formulas setup…. 😉… and you can include more criteria you think should be used…


Dennis,

The title of this forum is "ArchiCAD and Revit Evaluation Criteria" and this is all I'm trying to answer. I'm not interested in knowing what Autodesk, Graphisoft (or Nemetcshek) does in terms of marketing their products. Imagine we were comparing machines, cars, Mercedes vs BMW, ... this will always take in notice our personal tastes, but we can quantify the comparison ...

I've just followed Laura's qualitative criteria and made a simple exercise, nothing simpler. Please read again Laura's post and cross it with my evaluation. Please note: this is my experience, my opinion which is well fundament in column "Notes". If my post has caused such confusion, read Laura's post and try to make the same exercise, try to be honest and coherent with yourself.

I think I'm making the correct decisions, if that bothers you so much … please carry forward, read another post…

I'm not here to convert anyone or to bash some software. I'm giving my opinion freely and independently… I do not belong to Autodesk nor I'm a mercenary… got it?

.

[Anonymous]

It is good to have some healthy debate about various software packages. Competition can be a good thing in bringing about positive evolutionary changes.

Personally I hope this discussion and others like it are not limited by either one-eyed software devotees or patronising salespeople, who cannot enjoy healthy debate regarding their tools.

Please keep posting - I find it very interesting!

Hopefully we are not hijacked by trolls either! (I had to look it up) - According to Wikipedia "a troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

[Eduardo Rolon]

Can't resist anymore;

Revit does not run under Mac OS X
Archicad does.

I use OS X,
so I use Archicad

[Dennis Lee]

I know what you have been saying you are doing, I was just curious at the underlying reason or motivation - the why. Kind of like a psychological analysis?

refs wrote:
...I think I'm making the correct decisions, if that bothers you so much … please carry forward, read another post….

Maybe you think you made the correct decisions, but you need to prove it to yourself somehow? As for me, I believe the two programs are about equal at this point in time. On top of Laura's list, I've made my decision based on many other factors, probably more "chemistry" kind of things, such as my view of the respective corporate images, and what they stand for, to the way the building looks and feels in 3d view (the thick marquee thing was very sexy for me).

It doesn't bother me that you think you are making correct decisions, but it does bother me that you are trying to prove that your "decision" is somewhat quantifiable and able to be proven to be the correct decision, whereas I believe that like architecture and love, there's no absolute good or bad - it means different things to different people. So, please don't tell me that if we "make the test and don't cheat" we all will find out the same answer that you did.

[Anonymous]

Miki, I need to correct a few points you've made here...

Miki wrote:
Interoperability? Revit compatible with Revit Structures and Revit MEP. Nice. What about Tekla, SDS/2, and bunch of other formats? IFC in Revit just <b>[censored]</b>.

Having used IFC export/import in Revit purely on an experimental basis -- I haven't really needed it yet, though the time is coming! -- IFC works in Revit just fine. I've heard stories of people trying to move projects from AC to Revit and vice-versa and not having 100% success tho. Is that what you're talking about?

No support for slanted or profile walls, or non square openings. Compatibility with Autocad very limited (no layers support). Importing block as families? No? So sad. Revit Structures or MEP? Who is using it? It's like ABS for ADT. Mostly worthless. And by the way you forgot about Constructor with its MEP systems.

Profile walls are right in the default wall properties dialog box 😉 Canted walls do have to be modelled manually, but it's not accurate to say they are not supported. Revit supports AutoCAD layers during import (setting lineweights) and export (layer mapping of exports). Blocks can be imported into families and into the project, both 2D and 3D. Revit Structure has had good take-up here and elsewhere; MEP lags behind but is now ready for prime-time use, and you err in calling them worthless! Stantec, a large multidisciplinary firm here in North America is heading towards standardizing on Revit: Architecture, Structure and MEP. Refs is getting under everyone's skin but the facts remain even after the diatribe is removed.

GDL vs Families? Are you talking about Ease of creation on simple objects, or features? Ooo you are probably referring to this simple parametrical objects, but at the same time you are forgetting that AC users have most of needed parametric objects already in standard library, and they don't need to create parametric objects (can but don't need) and creation of not parametrical Objects is as simple.

While AC ships with a greater variety of objects (more's the pity for Revit users!) I still suspect Revit users are happier with the somewhat easier method of creating parametric objects in Revit. AC and Revit both allow creation of non-parametric objects more readily than parametric ones -- parametric object creation can be challenging but rewarding!

BIM A to Z. Hmm in your opinion of course. Can you define TRUE BIM? In my eyes AC is as true BIM as Revit. But more important is how from model you create set of Documents. This is where true BIM shows its face. Both software are equally good here.

Revit used to have the upper hand here with annotation management features that seem to be appearing more in AC with v11. Glad to see this happening. Now that AC has virtual trace (a very good feature for coordination) the scales may have tipped in AC's favour on this point. I have yet to see how this works.

Add-ons. Say what? I need some external addons? How is that that during my over 10 years practice with AC (from small interiors to couple hundred mil $ hospitals) I never used one? Interesting. I mean I was testing some of them, even found some of the useful, but somehow never incorporated one... Do you have some good addons for Revit?

Can you model terrain out of the box in AC? What does Architerra do anyway? Revit add-ons are for costing purposes mostly -- nothing for modeling or documentation yet, though I suppose it could be done.

Export from Revit to dwg better than from ADT? How? ADT's native file format is dwg? This area in Revit actually really <b>[censored]</b>. No layer make Revit not compatible with National Standard.

Revit used to be more compatible with AutoCAD than ADT -- no joke! ADT exports used to require object enablers and the proxy objects would often drive vanilla AutoCAD users crazy. AutoCAD has these enablers built in now so there are no problems at present. Revit still creates the best DWG exports in terms of them being simple, vanilla CAD drawings for consultants. ADT users still create a lot of AutoCAD junk data that the consultants then have to deal with (details drawn all over the place in model space, etc.)

Learning time better for Revit? Not in my experience. Somehow my guys adopt easier to Constructor (workflow exactly the same as AC). After creating a wall an dimension comes time with reflections how to a sheet out of it, and here AC just flies.
Migration to Revit from any package is a nightmare. The way of work differs from anything else. Lack of layers make things even worst. To much of software intervention of what you do. No way to transfer standards.

Individual users will learn the software that the resident expert knows best. Were you and I to train the same group of people on the two platforms, we would need THEM to truly make this statement verifiable. On layers: Revit has them -- they're called categories. Walls, doors, dimensions, text -- they all live on their own category that can be turned on/off. Custom categories can be added. CAD standards can be followed to the letter.

I think both systems are quite good with edge still strong on AC side. Teamwork, working hotlinks etc.

I give Revit the edge on completeness of the BIM platform and ease of use. I give AC the edge on file linking, modelling via Maxonform, and rendering.